Do you know what a DSB is and should you or does it even matter?

[SashimiTurtle]

I have to run sand in display, because I like too many sand sleeping or dwelling fish. I prefer shallow tho to avoid any disturbances from critters accidentally digging too deep. I would consider adding a dedicated DSB tank that ran beside the sump somehow..

 

[Doctorgori]

I dunno...I have a bare bottom but do miss the sea cucumbers, babylon snails and jawfish et ...
Also ole PaulB probably is witnessing friggin primordial evolution in that old sand of his, so who knows anything for certain....
OTOH I have like many others had the 4-7 year "mystery crash" and strongly suspect the sand
AND things while less real are absolutely easier...I vote its a wash...

 

[Lota Reefer]

Thought to share I am running combination DSB and Plennum, but doing it remotely in the the sump. The goals of trialling this include; lower ongoing costs compared to carbon dosing or chemical filtration; support barebottom in DT; water structure ideas/playing.

So the water structure in under the DSB is being maintained by maxspect bioballs as that are quite hard and I am looking to them to hold shape so water movement is maintained to prevent anoxic areas. This pic is 13 months in, and this 13 inch by 6inch at 4inch deep is keep a 22 gal mixed reef under 0.25 nitrates (red sea pro) and took about 6 weeks to cycle.

 

[Scott (Mack) McIntosh]

What the heck does DSB stand for? DSB is an acronym for deep sand bed!

The question and poll of the day is inspired by @JoshH and we're hoping to really get some good info from you!

How many of us are running a DSB and what are your experiences with it?

How deep is your DSB and how deep do you think it needs to be to be a DSB?

Is your DSB in your tank or is it a remote DSB?

image via @TriggerThis

Yes I have a deep sand bed. Always have for about 45 years. I like the look and the fish and inverts like it a lot. Many of the fish sleep in the sand and love to burrow out a hole to hid in. But it is the look that is the ocean. It is a good prop for frags without the look of trays, which is ugly. Sand bed is full of everything alive which probably changes from time to time. I feel it is a good buffer to my water quality which is what we keep. I don't keep inverts and fish....I keep water. With perfect water everything lives. Once a week water changes of 5% and water tests tell me that it is working. Plus it looks like the ocean when I dive or snorkel. I have seen a lot of tanks without a sand bed and, well, that just doesn't work for me.

 

[RocketEngineer]

While my last tank had all sorts of problems, I added a bucket DSB in an attempt to reduce my nitrates from 50ppm. Within a couple months the levels were under 10ppm and stayed that way up until I shut the system down. When I finally removed it, the sand was clean as when I hooked it up.

 

[Scott (Mack) McIntosh]

Yes I have a deep sand bed. Always have for about 45 years. I like the look and the fish and inverts like it a lot. Many of the fish sleep in the sand and love to burrow out a hole to hid in. But it is the look that is the ocean. It is a good prop for frags without the look of trays, which is ugly. Sand bed is full of everything alive which probably changes from time to time. I feel it is a good buffer to my water quality which is what we keep. I don't keep inverts and fish....I keep water. With perfect water everything lives. Once a week water changes of 5% and water tests tell me that it is working. Plus it looks like the ocean when I dive or snorkel. I have seen a lot of tanks without a sand bed and, well, that just doesn't work for me.

 

[Scott (Mack) McIntosh]

Also I use the sand bed as a large filter. I don't like equipment in my tank so to help keep it at a minimum my return water to my tank goes down to a under bed filter of the old days and comes back up into the tank thru the sand bed, one giant filter. That also keeps the sand bed alive. Which has been working for years. Fish loses are rare and I am learning to keep corals and inverts alive more and more everyday.

 

[Reefahholic]

NewYorkSteelo was the king of DSB’s. He and I both gathered information from Ron Shimek. Think of him as the Randy Farley of DSB’s.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-06/rs/feature/index.php

Best Deep Sand-bed videos on YouTube are by NewYorkSteelo:

 

[Reefahholic]

 

[MurphyJ]

Back in the day, when Dr Toonen was just Rob, he and Dr Shimek helped me set up my first reef tank. The importance of mixed grain size, patience in allowing the bacteria and fauna from the LR to inhabit the sandbed. Dr Shimek told me "don't build an upside down pyramid. Start with bacteria then progress slowly allowing each biological layer to take hold before adding the next." He had me counting how many worm tunnels per linear inch could I see and what size. Flashlight at night to count the pods on the rock and look for mysis shrimp dancing in and out of rock caves. Only then did you add top predators like fish.

Of course back then we bought real live rock straight from the ocean. Came in wet and wrapped in newspaper. We didn't bleach it to kill off the unknown. We begged cups of sand from established tanks and in turn gave some of ours when the bed matured.

I don't understand the "detritus gets trapped in sandbeds" . Once the bacteria is thriving it holds the sandbed so good flow can be used. The only time I have seen detritus get trapped was when people used crushed coral.

 

[brandon429]

link below is 30 pages of sandbeds being deconstructed to move homes.

if anyone runs a home transfer method that doesn't include cleaning, it will have lots of loss, the locus of the loss/recycle event isn't loss of bacteria even if we remove the entire sandbed all at once upon transfer, and re install only the live rocks. The locus of destruction was kicking up the partially degraded waste in the bed.

the extra surface area in a sandbed is in excess of whats needed, so by rule it traps detritus (which in stages of mineralization is possibly not as harmful/when beds work right)

sandbed organisms, bugs and pods and worms, are whole pellet waste producers they add to detritus vs consume it. a diamond goby is how to remove detritus from the bed, or ideally give it years to neutralize if possible.

it was once thought sandbeds were so critical, we couldn't remove them safely but in portions. We now know that's not the case, you can go bare bottom instantly and still carry the same fish bioload with no ramp up time because live rock quality is where its at/rocks have surface area beyond our needs, sand was triple extra beyond needs. All that means is the extra surface area afforded by sand is no requirement; we have several instant removal examples in there using the same # of fish, no ammonia occurs tank to tank.

This makes sandbeds more optional than I once thought.

check these examples for the losses and cycles we arrested with bed rinsing, this was CPR page after page and invasion control too (feeding on the detritus that clouds when you reach in, grab from any sandbed here, and drop it)

by instating the clean condition as the precursor to every action in this thread, we have no tank loss. clean condition is you can reach in, grab sand to the bottom, drop it, and your tank doesn't die or go through a months-long cyano outbreak due to destratification of the waste

**we were never able to assume a bed of any depth, or age, would be neutral. that leads to mis calls and total wipeouts, in my practice we never saw a sandbed that wasn't risky given any age although sitting there undisturbed, no reason to act up agreed.

Open offer for anyone to replicate this much work using a no rinse approach, id savor the link. consider the challenge of building and managing a thread of full tank transfers, upgrades, home moves, invasion controls without rinsing the danger in between the grains~

 

[brandon429]

here's the link for public scrutiny/review

in a practical access thread, people asking you for guaranteed no cycle, you can't approach a sandbed of any depth as neutral they're quite impactful actually. It takes special execution and consistent work to not lose tanks.

**I agree any tank that can sit there undisturbed/uninvaded due to artistic arrangement by the keeper doesn't need to be rinsed. large systems with big dilution help to mask the risks of a deep sand bed that has aged to any degree

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

*I don't think sandbeds are bad or need rinsing and attack lol.

That is simply a work thread. There is a need for safe access, we manage that. seeking better ways, meet this need in alternate ways and build some work we can see.

 

[chizerbunoi]

I always ran a SSB or prefer BB. But since I got into anemones I now cheat and have a DSB only where the anemones will be. The rest is BB so that I can siphon detritus out.

 

[Hermie]

I run two DSBs in my tank

• in the display, 1/3 of the bottom is a reverse DSB with plenum that gets flow from the return pump; there is some laterite mixed into the substrate to increase iron for bacteria
  
  
• in the sump I have a 1 gallon plastic container with about 5 inches of substrate, it probably doesn't do much but it hosts a sponge and bristle star

My original goal was to have some denitfication going on since I have a "high nutrient system" in the nano size. Do I know if denitrification is going on? I have no clue. I just know that it can happen, so I do what I can to encourage it.

 

[bh750]

HI all, I've been running a DSB for most of the 15 years I've been in the hobby. Thoughts I'd share my experience....

I keep a DSB for two reasons:

1) the asthetics. Sure I can get it with a SSB but doesn't give me #3
2) the cool like that lives in them
3) the natural benefits to my system (see below)

Glad someone finally called out Ron Shimek's work and his book. I've done a lot of research over the years, even corresponding with Dr. Ron directly several times over email. My thoughts...

- Nitrate cycle: one reason of course is for converting nitrate to gas, bubbled out of the tank. It must be of a certain depth for the anaerobic zones to be created (minimum of 6"). Otherwise the process wont work.

- Waste: I don't buy into the nutrient sink idea, but maybe that's how Ron and his book taught me how to run DSBs. See the whole DSB should be full, teeming of live/microfauna. Besides constantly stirring the sand they also consume all of the waste. It takes some time to build up a population of worms, stars, pods, etc but eventually, if done right, these things spend their time working through the same consuming all the waste. For that reason I don't buy the nutrient sink angle. Several times my 15 year old Tunze powerheads (still going strong) have fallen off their holder and pointed directly at the sand, pushing down 6+ inches. Aside from the annoyance by both me and the tanks inhabitants, nothing else negative happened each time.

- Ecosystem benefits: this is basically the idea we all buy into that our small, enclosed systems have life that benefits the entire system. Besides eating detritus, and stirring the sand these little critters multiply constantly, providing food for the tank in the way of eggs/larvae. Now I've never seen or proven this but this is part of the theory I buy into.

- I should mention along with the size of the sand and the depth, you can't have critters (crabs) or fish that will sift the sand and eat all of your microfauna.

- Like people mentioned there's fewer and fewer places to get the life from. IPSF is a great place. Inland Aquatics is gone. Garf is a good general source but they don't sell the stuff like IPSF. And its expensive too. Hence the patience aspect.

I will say that in my 220g system I no longer employ a skimmer or do water changes. Only extra piece of equipment I run is a (properly sized) UV sterilizer. Water is always crystal clear. I don't have a lot of heavy SPS corals that need a lot of calcium. I think that maybe as my sand dissolves over time it keeps Calcium up? Who knows. I never dose yet have tons of corraline algae in my tank.

- Yes, you do need to do it right, plan. Like mentioned the sand size needs

- Also I tried a RDSB (remote deep sand bed) in a 5 gallon bucket. Was talked out of it later by Dr. Ron for this reason: in order for a DSB to do its job, it needs life in there to constantly stir the sand. Mine didn't. If the sand isn't stirred it will harden and no longer function. So a DSB needs to be alive. If, for example, you wanted to keep a RDSB you will have to populate it with microfauna and then also feed them to keep them alive. Simple flake food works.

- For all of the reasons I never vacuum the sand. I do occasionally stir the top 1/2" based on my "belief" that it stirs up food for the corals and fish. who knows.

I probably have more in the topic and will chime in later if I can remember. Sorry, I did a ton of research and had so much fun at the same time. To me a DSB is equally as interesting as the rest of my reef tank.

Not for everyone, but if done right can benefit a system more than a shallow sand bed or none at all, IMO.

 

[brandon429]

is it possible for you to reach in on a cell phone vid, grab sand deep, and drop it to check the clouding



a system that big has dilution such that its not lethal/not assumed lethal in the design anyway but dilution makes it a safe request here vs a nano


if it does cloud, what does that consist of

if it doesn't, that's a nice balance of grains vs retention items. can you make a quick 20 second vid

another standout detail in our thread is the pictures of the removed sand, before cleaning. no wigglers/motile sandbed creatures, worms etc it was just mud in their pics.

those actionable animals need to be bought/ipsf or similar companies as mentioned above, that could be a real design difference in between success and needing surgical steps to save a tank from a dsb. post #49 cross section seems to be missing those animals as well

One of the most constant pumps for detritus in a reef tank is the actual live rock (its residents)

put several pounds live rock lifted out of any reef aquarium into a white bucket of clean saltwater, you can either let it sit for two days or bubble it / wont matter/ and it has a layer of castings compounding every single day as a detritus layer on the bottom. it'll start producing waste in the first 5 mins in the bucket, you can lift them out and see it when the water stills

multiply that x 10 yrs plus fish plus whole pellet waste producers in the bed, this is that clouding we can usually measure in a filmed drop test. Ive seen posts where gobies kept it all clean and it passed the drop test, though they never rip cleaned.

 

[Reefahholic]

If you set one up, you’ll likely have a major cloud for the first week or even longer. It is definitely messy. There are a few ways to combat this:

1. Add sand before water. Even doing this and using a plate (to minimize turbulence) it’s still very messy. Reguardless if powerheads are off. Expect silt for the first few weeks or even first month. Unless you wanna try to rinse all that sugar fine sand. I don’t recommend it.

2. Use a natural flicking agent like Dr. Tim’s Clear Up.

3. 10 micron filter socks make quick work of it, but you’ll need several to keep changing them out as they clog.

 

[brandon429]

pre rinse every single bag in tap water for an hour, install it clear.

does not remove bacteria from sand grains, removes that cloud of no benefit.

what it takes to remove bacteria from sand grains that look like the grand canyon under electron microscopy: bathroom cleaner. boiling. drying in the sun three days etc. never tap

 

[Reefahholic]

pre rinse every single bag in tap water for an hour, install it clear.

does not remove bacteria from sand grains, removes that cloud of no benefit.

what it takes to remove bacteria from sand grains that look like the grand canyon under electron microscopy: bathroom cleaner. boiling. drying in the sun three days etc. never tap

10 micron socks and a flocking agent will clear the worst clouds rapidly with no problem. Way less work.

 

[Hermie]

10 micron socks and a flocking agent will clear the worst clouds rapidly with no problem. Way less work.

"work smarter not harder"