Dosing Lanthanum Chloride - A Personal Experience

[siggy]

Filter sock 101 ....Is there a perferd material? .....I'm leaning felt? POLY, NYLON or?

MD has 10 micron for $9 these below are $3 BUT you have to buy 25 and another 20-25 in shipping
http://www.filterbag.com/pe5p4p-p435.html
http://www.filterbag.com/peng5p1p-p611.html

 

[BIGGUN]

I think a few key points need to be pointed out so there is a better understanding of why LC is diluted, why it's dripped and not poured in, and why through a filter sock or skimmer.

The main reason for the first two (diluting and dripping) is that LC strips the Phosphate so efficiently that the water in the immediate area goes to zero and then the LC reacts to produce Lanthanum Carbonate which quickly lowers Alk. So when your diluting and dripping you are trying to match the level of LC to the level of Phosphate in the immediate water that it is exposed to. So the LC should be dripped as a very weak solution in a turbulent area with high flow to maximize its exposure. So a filter sock sitting in idle water is not the best scenario. The filter sock should have heavy flow into it by either being under the down pipe or having water pumped into it as the LC is dripped. The filter sock is needed because the precipitate is an irritant to fish gills, and has been known to kill tangs.

I hope I explained that well enough to understand. I think it will help people decide the best way to dose in their own tank. The only other thing I should point out is that every time I've dosed LC into my 110 gallon system I've clogged 2 or 3 7 inch, 10 micron socks during the treatment. once the sock overflows it's just dumping it right into the tank, so keep an eye on it and change them out.

Kevin

 

[BigJohnny]

Well, I can’t believe my eyes. Dosed 25 ml of agent green into the overflow last night. Somewhat smoky, but not really. Anyway, woke up this morning to all of my zebrasomas ALIVE and my po4 is between 0.1-0.25 on salifert. Wow!! I will check it again tonight to see if any po4 leaches out and go on from there. I can’t believe I have my tank back!

Be careful how much your dropping your po4 at once if it's a reef tank. You will not necessarily see negative effects right away but a week or two later.

 

[SeaDweller]

Be careful how much your dropping your po4 at once if it's a reef tank. You will not necessarily see negative effects right away but a week or two later.

I'm prepping it for my other tank full of acros. There's nothing in it now but fish and some annoying nems.

 

[BigJohnny]

I think a few key points need to be pointed out so there is a better understanding of why LC is diluted, why it's dripped and not poured in, and why through a filter sock or skimmer.

The main reason for the first two (diluting and dripping) is that LC strips the Phosphate so efficiently that the water in the immediate area goes to zero and then the LC reacts to produce Lanthanum Carbonate which quickly lowers Alk. So when your diluting and dripping you are trying to match the level of LC to the level of Phosphate in the immediate water that it is exposed to. So the LC should be dripped as a very weak solution in a turbulent area with high flow to maximize its exposure. So a filter sock sitting in idle water is not the best scenario. The filter sock should have heavy flow into it by either being under the down pipe or having water pumped into it as the LC is dripped. The filter sock is needed because the precipitate is an irritant to fish gills, and has been known to kill tangs.

I hope I explained that well enough to understand. I think it will help people decide the best way to dose in their own tank. The only other thing I should point out is that every time I've dosed LC into my 110 gallon system I've clogged 2 or 3 7 inch, 10 micron socks during the treatment. once the sock overflows it's just dumping it right into the tank, so keep an eye on it and change them out.

Kevin

Can you tell me a little more about your experience dosing/concentrations/phosphate levels before and after etc. I have 110g total water volume so your experience would be very helpful to me. Also do you have acropora?

Thanks

 

[BIGGUN]

I can offer a little.... but I was dosing over a year and a half ago and have since let my tank go to crap because of life changes and NO time. I have just started to address these issues again. So my phosphates were up to .4-.5 I started with 1ml of SeaKlear in 2 liters of ro dripped into the top of my down pipe and filtered through a 10 micron sock on the sump end of the pipe. This was dripped over an 8 to 10 hour period. Within an hour or two my sock was clogged and overflowing (high water flow probably contributes to this). Testing afterwards had the phosphates down to .17. This was faster than I expected so I let the tank sit undosed for a day and went back at it with the phosphate level at .3 . For the 2nd dose I used .75ml in 2 liters this dropped it to undetectable levels which I didn't want. I let it sit a week or so and it was back to .3ish. Dosed .5ml in 2 liters and it dropped to .05. I kept dosing at that level once a week and seemed to have it controlled to that range of swing and the tank seemed to be doing well. Then life and a new career popped up and I haven't touched it since. Time to start treating again and get things back in control.

I was running a heavy load mixed reef. Medium end acros. High end chalices, mushrooms, and zoas. everyday LPS. Tangs, clowns, clean-up snails and crabs. Everything was doing well even at higher phosphate levels but as they creeped up hair algae started to show up in lower flow areas.

Kevin

 

[BigJohnny]

I can offer a little.... but I was dosing over a year and a half ago and have since let my tank go to crap because of life changes and NO time. I have just started to address these issues again. So my phosphates were up to .4-.5 I started with 1ml of SeaKlear in 2 liters of ro dripped into the top of my down pipe and filtered through a 10 micron sock on the sump end of the pipe. This was dripped over an 8 to 10 hour period. Within an hour or two my sock was clogged and overflowing (high water flow probably contributes to this). Testing afterwards had the phosphates down to .17. This was faster than I expected so I let the tank sit undosed for a day and went back at it with the phosphate level at .3 . For the 2nd dose I used .75ml in 2 liters this dropped it to undetectable levels which I didn't want. I let it sit a week or so and it was back to .3ish. Dosed .5ml in 2 liters and it dropped to .05. I kept dosing at that level once a week and seemed to have it controlled to that range of swing and the tank seemed to be doing well. Then life and a new career popped up and I haven't touched it since. Time to start treating again and get things back in control.

I was running a heavy load mixed reef. Medium end acros. High end chalices, mushrooms, and zoas. everyday LPS. Tangs, clowns, clean-up snails and crabs. Everything was doing well even at higher phosphate levels but as they creeped up hair algae started to show up in lower flow areas.

Kevin

Thanks. The variability in po4 reduction at a given dose is what scares me. Those swings would probably crush my tank right now.

 

[siggy]

Observations using LC
While I was testing yesterday, I mixed 40ml Ro and 10ml LC and using a syringe added 10 ml solution to a dirty 7" filter sock. Water would rise aprox 1" per dose and 5" total above water level after 5 doses. the water finally showed a slight cloudiness after all 5 doses, this was done in about a 1.5 hour period.
This was a 100 micron sock( Very Heavy felt) and I figured 1 dose 10ml LC total wouldn't hurt. Well all fish including 2 hippos were fine but my 1 Purple Tang was not. It appeared Drunk and was unable to eat the provided Nori sheet that was offered. Normally It is the first to attack the nori and is quite a pig until its satisfied. It seemed too struggle to stay vertical listing side to side being pushed around in the flow. Of course I was frantic and filled a bucket of pre-mixed SW and started heating it to 78 deg. By the time it was up to temp the slight cloudiness was dissipating and he was sobering up and hitting the nori. This morning he is back to normal.
A Acro frag has bleached 50% sense yesterday But this could be the result Of my removal of the Chaeto fuge and halting of dosing Nitrates a week ago. BTY I now have 1.5 without dosing , w/fuge 0

I am halting LC until I receive 10 micron socks and will slow drip a very diluted solution and monitor closely.

 

[BIGGUN]

Which LC? They are all different concentrations. If it was SeaKlear or similar 10 ml is WAY too much. And putting it in 40 ml of RO didn't dilute it nearly enough. These are actually 2 different issues that are both bad. 10 ml is the total dosage that was put into your tank which if it was introduced extremely slowly and more diluted would strip the phosphates to 0 and probably shock corals. I would suggest total doses of .5ml or less a day followed by a test an hour or 2 after the dose is complete. Then you can adjust your following dosing according to your first results.

As for delivery of the dose mix it with as much RO as you can and drip it into a 10 micron sock with good water flow through it SLOWLY. I drip at about 1 drop per second. The 100 does almost nothing to filter the precipitate.

 

[BIGGUN]

Thanks. The variability in po4 reduction at a given dose is what scares me. Those swings would probably crush my tank right now.

Start with a smaller dose in the same amount of RO.

 

[siggy]

Which LC?

Agent green, I had used this in the past with no ill affects. This was a year ago and little was known on proper usage so I merely followed the directions.
Then J. Sprung did a demo at Macna that I happen to see and I halted its use until yesterday. BTW I had a large Yellow Tang at the time. (relocated bc of aggression)

 

[drawman]

Agent green, I had used this in the past with no affects. This was a year ago and little was known on proper usage so I merely followed the directions.
Then J. Sprung did a demo at Macna that I happen to see and I halted its use until yesterday. BTW I had a large Yellow Tang at the time. (relocated bc of aggression)

Smart to move to a 10 micron sock. Even though it looks like it will catch the debris it definitely will let enough pass.

 

[SeaDweller]

Place the filter sock wedged in between rocks with just a few inches under water and where only LC being dosed goes inside the filter and mixes with water.

Dr reef I know you've been using seaklear for quite some time. Do you notice any affects on your corals (namely acros if you have them) as time goes on and it's possibly accumulated lanthanum in your system?

 

[Dr. Reef]

Using LC over time will effect a few things.
First when phos levels are low it will decrease alkalinity and keeping alk stable will be a daily struggle.
With lower alkalinity, pH will also tend to be on the lower side.
Residue or precipitation if making it I to the tank will start to settle as a layer on corals rock sand and inside tubing pipes pumps etc.
All these things mentioned above will contribute towards sensitive livestock like Acro clams tangs will start to show distress.
But it's not the end of the world.
You just have to balance this.
Also using LC will cause phos to drop down to absolute 0 if dosage is unchecked.
This will lead to other issues like when phos is absolute 0 dinos are likely to thrive and corals not to much.
It's a balancing act and takes some time to figure it all out but is very much doable with good success.
I would slowly drop phos and then once it's under 0.08 use gfo to keep it within 0.03 to 0.05 range or use less LC along with nitrates to be about 3 to 10 ppm.

 

[SeaDweller]

Using LC over time will effect a few things.
First when phos levels are low it will decrease alkalinity and keeping alk stable will be a daily struggle.
With lower alkalinity, pH will also tend to be on the lower side.
Residue or precipitation if making it I to the tank will start to settle as a layer on corals rock sand and inside tubing pipes pumps etc.
All these things mentioned above will contribute towards sensitive livestock like Acro clams tangs will start to show distress.
But it's not the end of the world.
You just have to balance this.
Also using LC will cause phos to drop down to absolute 0 if dosage is unchecked.
This will lead to other issues like when phos is absolute 0 dinos are likely to thrive and corals not to much.
It's a balancing act and takes some time to figure it all out but is very much doable with good success.
I would slowly drop phos and then once it's under 0.08 use gfo to keep it within 0.03 to 0.05 range or use less LC along with nitrates to be about 3 to 10 ppm.

Thanks. I don't ever want to hit zero NO3 or PO4. My goal is 5-15 ppm NO3 and PO4 below 0.10.

 

[BZOFIQ]

I know you guys are dosing this to your display tanks. But I have rock in a brute container of RODI water and want to dose Seaklear LC get rid of leaching phosphates before they go into the tank.

So can I dose a higher amount because their is no fish or corals to worry about?

Also should I drip or pour the LC into a .5 micron sock so nothing sticks to my rock or pumps. Don't want to be scrubbing white precipitate of my rocks.

Wedge a sock between your rocks and place a small pump at the bottom of your vessel with a section of hose to pump water into the sock. Slowly drip your diluted LC into the stream of water coming out of the hose. The product will be filtered out by the sock.

I believe that 5 micron was required and often recommended type in the lengthy thread on RC.

 

[SeaDweller]

I know you guys are dosing this to your display tanks. But I have rock in a brute container of RODI water and want to dose Seaklear LC get rid of leaching phosphates before they go into the tank.

So can I dose a higher amount because their is no fish or corals to worry about?

Also should I drip or pour the LC into a .5 micron sock so nothing sticks to my rock or pumps. Don't want to be scrubbing white precipitate of my rocks.

I'm not sure if you can dose it to straight RODI. I think you need calcium for it to work too. On the agent green bottle it states for freshwater tanks to use crushed coral or oyster shells to add a calcium buffer for it to work? I could be wrong, but binding to phosphate, using up alkalinity, and calcium were major players in the equation

 

[jsker]

How much do you anticipate that dropping your phosphate by?

I am just revisiting this thread

By half at the time of my post.

 

[jsker]

Anyone use agent green? I’m using it now and diluted it into 1 gallon of RODI but I don’t see any floc or precipitation formed? Is it because it’s too dilute and possibly already dilute to begin with?

Yes I have used Agent Green and Dose 12 ml per gallon straight out of the bottle into the tank. Works well. Mixing your own is totally different using products like SeaKlean.

 

[jsker]

Agent green here also. IS AG a diluted product? @jsker . I was considering adding LatC to topoff container and letting the Felt filter sock on the return do the collecting.
If I add to sock in sump, is this in the return sock or a specific sock placed solely for collecting precip. then if so, Flow requirements? ....ANY picks of the process?

Yes