Dying Pagoda Cup

[Jo Hedges]

Hi. Thanks in advance for any feedback for my problem.
Even though I have had a reef tank for 12+ years, I am still no expert. However, i have had a pagoda cup in my tank for the entire 12+ years and it has come a long way from the beginning. But, now its dying and my local reef guy is telling me that my flame angel and my swallowtail are what is killing it.
I admit the swallowtail is the newer fish, but I got it specifically bcuz its supposed to be reef safe (not to mention, the cup started dying before I got it). I've had a flame angel in my tank for 5+ years. My profile picture is what my Pagoda used to look like. Now it looks like the picture attached. My reef guy has tested my water several times and says its not the water so it can only be the angelfish. However (again), he has used Aptasia X in my tank a few times to kill my aptasia, and i am wondering if THAT could be what is killing it?? It was used twice while I was not home and once when I was. The time it was used when i was home, the syringe he used leaked and the water turned somewhat cloudy. If my cup ate it, this could be the reason, right?? Also, I'm curious.... does my cup LOOK LIKE it's being eaten?? I just need other opinions here. I love my reef guy, but what he's telling me just doesn't make sense to me. Can anyone please help?? This pagoda cup and I have a history and it's killing me that i'm losing it.
thanks again.
jh

 

[Crabs McJones]

Welcome to R2R! Sorry to hear about your Pagoda Cup. Did your reef guy supply you with any numbers as far as your water parameters? Any changes in lighting? I'll move this over to the LPS forum to get more expert eyes on it for you :)

#WelcometoR2R #Reefsquad

 

[Lovemyreef2015]

Sorry about your pagoda cup coral:(

 

[Flippers4pups]

Have you witnessed the flame pecking at it or any other corals? Flames as they mature can flip a switch and start doing this even if they have been model citizens.

Swallow tail shouldn't do this as they are plankton eaters as opposed to algae eaters as with the flame.

Aptasia x could have damaged it if some had landed on it during treatment. Its a possibility.

 

[MnFish1]

Curious - how big is the coral - how big is the tank? I ask because I have seen this with LPS (and SPS) that has been doing well long term - suddenly go downhill with a change in lighting - or alk or whatever.

As Flipper4pups said - one of the best ways to tell if the flame (or something else) is damaging the coral is to observe it. If the Angel is eating it - or bothering it - you should see it (I would think). Without seeing the fish 'eating' it there is no way to know. It is possible that it nibbled at it - and now there is a bacterial infection of some kind that is now spreading to other areas (you asked whether it looked like it was eaten - to me there would be multiple areas where there was damage -to me it looks like there is damage in the center that is spreading to neighboring tissue.

In my case - my goniopora which was the size of a basketball had a rock fall onto the center- damaging one polyp. one week later 2 polyps were damaged, next couple days 5-6 polyps (ie skeleton showing). I thought I'll just let it heal. But it progressed from one very small area of damage. within a month there was an inch in diameter (progressing) area of death. The polyps stopped opening on the rest of the coral. I picked it up - and could clearly smell the rotting flesh.

 

[Rick.45cal]

That looks like what happens when there’s a phosphate deficiency in the tank. I would test my own water and see if my phosphates are undetectable. Test for Alkalinity, Calcium, Magnesium, Nitrate (NO3), and Phosphate (PO4) and report back to us. Did GFO get put in the tank when the decline started, does your reef guy use GFO in your system? (It’s worth asking him if you do not know.)

Welcome to Reef2Reef! We’ll help you solve this!

 

[vetteguy53081]

Not the easiest coral to keep alive. best planted on sand beds with moderate flow, Often , being covered in sand will cause this

 

[MnFish1]

Not the easiest coral to keep alive. best planted on sand beds with moderate flow, Often , being covered in sand will cause this

Actually I was going to mention - are those sand grains (the white spots) on the coral?

 

[HB AL]

In my opinion that decline is not from fish harassment. I would lean towards some issue with the water, params out of wack, to high or to low nutrients, trace elements, etc.... What are your alk, cal, mag, nitrate, phosphate, salinity levels?

 

[Lovemyreef2015]

To me the entire coral looks dead already. The nipping of the fish (if witnessed) could be eating algae off the coral like the asterina starfish is. I'd vote parameter swing or imbalance.

 

[Jo Hedges]

Welcome to R2R! Sorry to hear about your Pagoda Cup. Did your reef guy supply you with any numbers as far as your water parameters? Any changes in lighting? I'll move this over to the LPS forum to get more expert eyes on it for you :)

#WelcometoR2R #Reefsquad

No lighting changes and no, he didn't supply numbers.
Thank you for adding additional eyes.

 

[Jo Hedges]

Sorry about your pagoda cup coral:(

I love this! Thank you :D

 

[reefwiser]

So I have had Pagoda cups for years and here is what can cause them problems. In the wild they are found in clear water areas where there are no sand that can blow up on them.
So in your case I can see a path in the areas having a problem. This can cause an infection. I treat this with a lugols dip treatment to kill off the bad bacteria that is eating the flesh of the coral.
Do you have the coral on the sand bed or do you have a sand bed? If so move the coral up off the sand bed and give it good flow. The coral loves good flow across it. Has you coral always been contracted.
Mine is a super bright Green and bushy. Do you feed the coral I always feed coral food at least several times a month.
With a sand bend bottom is there fish picking up or blowing sand a round the coral. The coral doesn't remove sand will and the sand will cause infection as there is no way for the coral to deflate and move the sand off its skin. Which will cause infections. I had a fish that started blowing sand up on the coral and I had to move the coral to keep the fish from constantly putting sand on the coral.
I bet a fish is causing the issue but you will need to watch the tank to see the one doing it.:)

 

[Jo Hedges]

Have you witnessed the flame pecking at it or any other corals?

Yes, but i think only to take food off of it like I've seen my tang do. I have never seen any damage from it at all though.

 

[Jo Hedges]

Curious - how big is the coral - how big is the tank? I ask because I have seen this with LPS (and SPS) that has been doing well long term - suddenly go downhill with a change in lighting - or alk or whatever.

As Flipper4pups said - one of the best ways to tell if the flame (or something else) is damaging the coral is to observe it. If the Angel is eating it - or bothering it - you should see it (I would think). Without seeing the fish 'eating' it there is no way to know. It is possible that it nibbled at it - and now there is a bacterial infection of some kind that is now spreading to other areas (you asked whether it looked like it was eaten - to me there would be multiple areas where there was damage -to me it looks like there is damage in the center that is spreading to neighboring tissue.

In my case - my goniopora which was the size of a basketball had a rock fall onto the center- damaging one polyp. one week later 2 polyps were damaged, next couple days 5-6 polyps (ie skeleton showing). I thought I'll just let it heal. But it progressed from one very small area of damage. within a month there was an inch in diameter (progressing) area of death. The polyps stopped opening on the rest of the coral. I picked it up - and could clearly smell the rotting flesh.

The coral is about 10" x 10". The tank is 125 gal. No lighting changes.
The center of the coral is actually the thickest part of it. It's the last area that is "alive" i suppose. The skin is what started to die first. One small black area. Then two. Then it just spread from there.

 

[Jo Hedges]

That looks like what happens when there’s a phosphate deficiency in the tank. I would test my own water and see if my phosphates are undetectable. Test for Alkalinity, Calcium, Magnesium, Nitrate (NO3), and Phosphate (PO4) and report back to us. Did GFO get put in the tank when the decline started, does your reef guy use GFO in your system? (It’s worth asking him if you do not know.)

Welcome to Reef2Reef! We’ll help you solve this!

No. Just water changes, glass and sand cleaning. He did add a bag of carbon in the sump area a couple of times.
Is a Reef Test Kit a good source for getting the proper measurements? My reef guy says he doesn't trust them.

 

[Jo Hedges]

Not the easiest coral to keep alive. best planted on sand beds with moderate flow, Often , being covered in sand will cause this

This guy has never been in the sand. I've always had it propped up on stone with no close neighbors.

 

[Jo Hedges]

Actually I was going to mention - are those sand grains (the white spots) on the coral?

No, its the polyps that have not died off yet.

 

[Jo Hedges]

To me the entire coral looks dead already. The nipping of the fish (if witnessed) could be eating algae off the coral like the asterina starfish is. I'd vote parameter swing or imbalance.

My reef guy just told me that there is no saving it at this point. Would everyone agree with that?

 

[Lovemyreef2015]

My reef guy just told me that there is no saving it at this point. Would everyone agree with that?

Corals can come back from the slightest bit of tissue so I personally would leave it.