Effects of tap water on Nitrifying during Rip-Clean method: Experiment

[Lasse]

TDS will not say anything about the content of chlorine and chloramine as they are not ions

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Coxey81]

TDS will not say anything about the content of chlorine and chloramine as they are not ions

Sincerely Lasse

Yeah, I didn't think so, but thought I'd provide the info anyway.

 

[Coxey81]

Diving into the details of if it was the water, the brushing, etc is great.

But would we all conclude it's not wise to clean your rocks using tap water and a brush?

 

[sixty_reefer]

Diving into the details of if it was the water, the brushing, etc is great.

But would we all conclude it's not wise to clean your rocks using tap water and a brush?

We wouldn’t be able to make a conclusion unless the same was to be replicated using salt water imo. As tap water not been proved to kill bacteria on this thread so far. The only thing that can be conclusive is that the process you chose to do will reduce filtration capabilities up to 80% according the details you have posted on this thread.

 

[Coxey81]

We wouldn’t be able to make a conclusion unless the same was to be replicated using salt water imo. As tap water not been proved to kill bacteria on this thread so far. The only thing that can be conclusive is that the process you chose to do will reduce filtration capabilities up to 80% according the details you have posted on this thread.

Agreed.

But wouldn't you say the combo of the brushing and tap water is not wise at this point, especially with a 100% water change.

Later we can discuss if it's the tap water or the brushing, etc.

 

[MnFish1]

Is your rock made made? Or the good stuff? I’m the Uk chlorine is used in our tap water, in my region the TDS goes around 50 to 80

HI - The rock was not man-made - but it was dry (i.e. taken from the ocean, bleached, etc). We have chlorine (not chloramines) - at about 1 ppm (range .7-1.3). TDS here is about 70 out of the tap. There is no copper in the water.

 

[LRT]

Diving into the details of if it was the water, the brushing, etc is great.

But would we all conclude it's not wise to clean your rocks using tap water and a brush?

Yeah I don't think this would be a very wise conclusion at all.
1) Id never reccomend any reefer take a white piece of dead rock with 0 algae growing on it to scrub. Doesn't make sense to do so in the least. If we are applying to Rip Clean the whole reason to pull rock and scrub during Rip Clean would be for algae or dino removal.
2) In my personal living reef linked in my build thread. Ive employed the applications of rock scrub and tap rinse I described in this thread to my gulf rock. On a weekly basis with some of the same problematic rock during regular water changes to no ill effects.
You can see that same gulf rock real time right now living in my reef with 0 algae or dinos on it. Post pix almost everyday
Matter of fact you can see the whole entire process I described with pictures in the thread I linked earlier in this thread.
Here it is again-

Ever rinsed your Ocean Rock?

Just curious.

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm not sure, but my water company provides a pretty detailed water report and I will try to get a copy soon.

Anything from a municipal water company will have disinfectants in it.

 

[Lasse]

But wouldn't you say the combo of the brushing and tap water is not wise at this point, especially with a 100% water change

I hope you continue with the measurements till at least ammonia is close to zero (including NO2 tests) - after that we may say something more. You are right - in this case - the combination was not a success. But your measurements further on can give the answer if you can do this process and compensate for the loss of carrying capacity with a smaller load for a week or two.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

Agreed.

But wouldn't you say the combo of the brushing and tap water is not wise at this point, especially with a 100% water change.

Later we can discuss if it's the tap water or the brushing, etc.

I would 'say' - (if I was forced to make a decision just on these results) - that I would not scrub/rinse, etc - my entire biofilter with tap water. For example - if we were using sponge filters - I'm not sure I would take one sponge filter - used in a tank - and then completely rinse it, etc.

My strong feeling is that adding 3 ppm to the tank after rinsing is - a very high concentration - and that for example - If you added small amounts of ammonia back daily - there would not be a problem (thats for another experiment) - we (all) wanted to see what would happen in the worst case scenario - and I think we did - in two different tanks - with 2 somewhat different methods. My hope is that the experiments in the next week (or so) - will further help decide - 'what was happening'.

So - I would request any recommendations on changes, requests, etc - so that everyone can be on the same page so to speak. My plan is NOT to do daily updates - but rather update when 'something important' happens - or a full documentation at the end. If thats ok with everyone. (I will take pictures, etc - and show the set up - at the start).

@Lasse, @Dan_P, @taricha, @Sixty_reefer,@Coxey81, @Randy Holmes-Farley, @brandon429 and any other interested parties.

 

[MnFish1]

I hope you continue with the measurements till at least ammonia is close to zero (including NO2 tests) - after that we may say something more. You are right - in this case - the combination was not a success. But your measurements further on can give the answer if you can do this process and compensate for the loss of carrying capacity with a smaller load for a week or two.

Sincerely Lasse

@Coxey81 - I completely agree IF you're willing that would be so great - and really helpful for going forward.

 

[Lasse]

To your test @MnFish1 When you rinse in tap water - have around a coffee spoon of ascorbic acid to 100 L tap water. It will take away any chlorine compounds

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Coxey81]

Yeah I don't think this would be a very wise conclusion at all.
1) Id never reccomend any reefer take a white piece of dead rock with 0 algae growing on it to scrub. Doesn't make sense to do so in the least. If we are applying to Rip Clean the whole reason to pull rock and scrub during Rip Clean would be for algae or dino removal.
2) In my personal living reef linked in my build thread. Ive employed the applications of rock scrub and tap rinse I described in this thread to my gulf rock. On a weekly basis with some of the same problematic rock during regular water changes to no ill effects.
You can see that same gulf rock real time right now living in my reef with 0 algae or dinos on it. Post pix almost everyday
Matter of fact you can see the whole entire process I described with pictures in the thread I linked earlier in this thread.
Here it is again-

Ever rinsed your Ocean Rock?

Just curious.

www.reef2reef.com

But after the the algae and Dino removal arent you left with basically scrubbing a rock with coralline? Or isn't that basically the goal excluding corals, etc?

 

[MnFish1]

To your test @MnFish1 When you rinse in tap water - have around a coffee spoon of ascorbic acid to 100 L tap water. It will take away any chlorine compounds

Sincerely Lasse

My plan thus far was to do the 'rinsing' - in the following manner

1. Tank temp salt water
2. Tank temp RODI
3. Tank temp tapwater - with chlorine neutralizer
4. Tank Temp tapwater - alone

Duration 1 minute, no scrubbing


Then 1-4 with the same water and duration - Duration 10 minutes, no scrubbing

Then 1-4 with Same water and duration but with scrubbing 1 minute

Then 1-4 with Same water and duration but scrubbing 5 minute

Then repeat everything - with 100 degree F water.

NOTE - THiS WAS EDITED. Due to a problem with the browser exiting.

 

[LRT]

But after the the algae and Dino removal arent you left with basically scrubbing a rock with coralline? Or isn't that basically the goal excluding corals, etc?

In my specific application for my living reef? No. Like I said earlier in this thread I brought a hitchiker algae into my system that totally took over and covered nearly every surface of my rock at one point. It was tough to remove and did have to repeat same scrub and rinse i described to several rocks on weekly basis for at least a cpl months. Its been well documented in my build threads and the rock in discussion in thread I linked above can be seen in my current build thread with 0 algae on it.
Please note the many attached or encrusted corals on rock as they where present during the whole entire process and never lost one.
So done right. In the correct setting it can be supremely beneficial.

 

[MnFish1]

To me the questions (to summarize)

1. What level of ammonia to start with? 1 ppm 2 ppm?
2. Use tank rock (Like @sixty_reefer) or sump rock (like @Coxey81)
3. One problem will be if one step 'stops' the process. It will be difficult to try to totally replicate it. One way to do it would be to restart with the same rock - and a measured amount of 'Fritz 9000' - until the rock can process 2 ppm - and then repeating whatever steps need to be. If this were the case, I would leave the bacteria in the tank for 48 hours - with perhaps 1 ppm ammonia - to allow the bacteria to settle, become somewhat established.
4. Rinse the tank and equipment as well?
5. What about phosphate?

 

[Coxey81]

I hope you continue with the measurements till at least ammonia is close to zero (including NO2 tests) - after that we may say something more. You are right - in this case - the combination was not a success. But your measurements further on can give the answer if you can do this process and compensate for the loss of carrying capacity with a smaller load for a week or two.

Sincerely

Nevermind, misread

 

[MnFish1]

Note - these tests will not test 'every possibility' - i.e. you cannot compare sump rock - with algae covered rock from a lit tank. You cannot compare removing 50% of the rock and cleaning it - with removing all of the rock in a tank and cleaning it. You cannot compare taking out sand - and cleaning it - but leaving the rock, and vice versa.

This test will merely try to reconcile some of the results between @Coxey81 - and @sixty_reefer - and some of the questions of @Lasse and @Rmckoy concerning the affects of rinsing/removing ALL of a filter surface and applying various cleaning methods.

 

[Coxey81]

I guess my goal of this thread was if someone posted and said hey, I want to take my rocks out and wash them in the sink and scrub the crap out of them... is this safe to do?

I wanted to be able to say yes, completely safe. Or probably not the best choice, imo.

If someone want to go into the details of what's in their tap water, what type of rock they have, their bioload, etc etc etc. And figuring out all those combinations to determine if it's safe.... More power to them I suppose.

But it wouldn't be something I would personally suggest as being a safe option.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Note - these tests will not test 'every possibility' - i.e. you cannot compare sump rock - with algae covered rock from a lit tank. You cannot compare removing 50% of the rock and cleaning it - with removing all of the rock in a tank and cleaning it. You cannot compare taking out sand - and cleaning it - but leaving the rock, and vice versa.

This test will merely try to reconcile some of the results between @Coxey81 - and @sixty_reefer - and some of the questions of @Lasse and @Rmckoy concerning the affects of rinsing/removing ALL of a filter surface and applying various cleaning methods.

@MnFish1 i only got one request for you to add if possible.

day 1.

1. Fill tank with 4 gallons of tank water (very important)

2. Add 4 lbs of live rock from your tank (sump or display) but try to mention your choice.

3. Add 2ppm of ammonia (first try and figure the concentration if possible?) and observe for 24h

This should give you a good baseline to start the test and more accurate information to the first test of the op. I feel that we all just looking too much into the second test completely discarded the first test.