Emperor swim bladder issues?

[Louis Z]

If it was me in this situation. , I would continue with copper . Keep the air . Add a diatom filter and then a UV filter . .I would be trying to catch any parasites at their free swimming stage if they are able to withstand the copper . One clue you gave me was that the tang was exhibiting this behavior at a later period in time after the emperor showed these signs .

 

[vetteguy53081]

fish were purchased 4 days ago and have all been added in the QT tank with a copper level between .25 and .35. Daily water xhanges were made with the nrw water being beiught to same level as tank copper levels so we never had a reading less then .25 in the tank for those 4 days.
Initially tank was set up with 2 spong filters the waterfall return and 1 airstone.
Since initially Emperor and later Achilles started laying themselves down more oxygen was added at advice of Jay which clearly did something to them)
Not saying it can not be velvet but it seems hard to have an outbreak with the copper present. I understand that attached parasites were there to stay maybe but it would be hard for other free swimming parasites to have been around and able to attach correct?
Emperor clearly deteriorated rapidly iden dito fir Achilles and bith recivered (so it seems but lets wait till tmrw morning) with the extra added oxygen stones.
i am happy I can discuss this with all you as i try to learn from all your opinions

I looked again on a large screen and I dont see this as parasitical but overall weakness. When purchased, did you see fish eat and was it easy for LFS to catch it? Often stress can be applied from netting especially if person inexperienced.

 

[dellinwood]

I’d hold off on any water changes, add as much air stones as you can, and dose Prime. Do the x5 dose. I’m guessing the ammonia is higher with all the feedings and combined with copper he’s crashing

 

[W31Olds]

You have an awful lot of fish (some large also) in a 50 Gallon uncycled QT Tank. Ammonia is going to be a problem and daily water changes/detritus vacuuming over a QT period is going to add stress. This is a recipe for a poor outcome so I would consider moving some of you fishes to a second tank. I would suspect Flukes may be causing the problem with your Emp. If you can get enough O2 in the Water for him to make a partial recovery to do a FW dip I would do that. Emp's seem to tolerate Dips well and larger Fish do also better overall.

 

[Louis Z]

Were the sponge filters already cycled? I often put small pieces of live rock that have been cycled in my display tank Refugium . After using in quarantine/ treatment tank . I dip in freshwater , then hydrogen peroxide them do as to remove any parasites . But I never add it back to display tank but another small tank that is always running without fish

 

[Aquatica Services Pattaya]

is it possible to add too much oxygen to a QT tank?

 

[Louis Z]

possibly if you are pumping in pure oxygen and more so if you were at depth. There is a condition of oxygen toxicity . If you are at sea level and using an air pump that is pumping ambient air , you shouldn’t have a problem . You are pushing air in with normal concentrations of oxygen , nitrogen and carbon dioxide . With adding air bubbles you you are facilitating the removal of excess dissolved carbon dioxide by agitation and increasing the surface area that allows the carbon dioxide to diffuse out . One warning that everyone is giving you is to make sure you don’t have an increased level of ammonia . Doing water changes will dilute the ammonia but not get rid of it completely . That is why I ask if the air foam filters were adequately seasoned . The cultured concentraction of denitrifying bacteria on those sponges will determine if the ammonia will be oxidized quickly to a less toxic form (nitrite and nitrate) Always do a check of pH , ammonia , nitrite and nitrate in the quarantine tanks . , if you are doing water changes with normal salt mixes your pH will be fine . They have buffers so that pH shouldn’t rise to dangerous levels . As long as you are not dripping in kalkwasser or magnesium you shouldn’t have a problem with the pH . The fish are breathing rapidly because there maybe an obstacle in its normal ability to absorb oxygen and remove carbon dioxide . The obstacle maybe in the form of parasites (trematodes or dinoflagellates) smothering or destroying gill tissue . Any time you have injury to the gills , the normal fishes ability to keep its body in homeostasis will be compromised . I am not trying to be condescending , I am just trying to give a thorough response .

 

[Jay Hemdal]

is it possible to add too much oxygen to a QT tank?

Not oxygen - fish can survive at 150% saturation of oxygen, and it can help with some fish like sharks during transport. The real issue is nitrogen supersaturation. That only happens when air (70% nitrogen) is injected into water under pressure. That only happens when there is an air leak on the suction side of a pump, or when cold water is heated up suddenly and then used in aquariums.

If you are aerating using bubbles, that actually works to reduce supersaturation - like shaking up a can of soda.

 

[dellinwood]

is it possible to add too much oxygen to a QT tank?

Nope, you’re trying to combat nitrogen wash out but adding in more oxygen or aerating. Update on the emperor?

 

[Aquatica Services Pattaya]

Nope, you’re trying to combat nitrogen wash out but adding in more oxygen or aerating. Update on the emperor?

the Emperor has died...
Achilles seem to have gone to 90% normal again....
so in QT tanks it is better to do close to 100% water changes?
we use fresh ocean water here so Ph and other parameters should always be stable...
all QT are under temp control too

 

[Jay Hemdal]

the Emperor has died...
Achilles seem to have gone to 90% normal again....
so in QT tanks it is better to do close to 100% water changes?
we use fresh ocean water here so Ph and other parameters should always be stable...
all QT are under temp control too

Is your seawater source filtered? How far offshore is it collected from? Using inshore water can bring diseases in.

 

[dellinwood]

the Emperor has died...
Achilles seem to have gone to 90% normal again....
so in QT tanks it is better to do close to 100% water changes?
we use fresh ocean water here so Ph and other parameters should always be stable...
all QT are under temp control too

Sorry for the loss, definitely a bummer on that size of an adult fish.

There’s several methods. The humble.fish forum can be a great guide. With that size of fish, I’d qt him alone with a 40g breeder. 100% wc can be stressful on him as the parameters usually never match perfectly. Let the fish settle in for a couple days and start eating again, then bring copper up over a 3 day span to therapeutic levels. Ive been using brute cans of premixed water with the copper already matched to the qt tank, so parameters should be closer. 50% wc every few days and adding Prime in every morning to detoxify the ammonia. I dose metro every other day as well during the first 2 weeks. I’ve also had better luck with copper power. Good luck on the future qt process, it can be stressful

 

[Aquatica Services Pattaya]

Sorry for the loss, definitely a bummer on that size of an adult fish.

There’s several methods. The humble.fish forum can be a great guide. With that size of fish, I’d qt him alone with a 40g breeder. 100% wc can be stressful on him as the parameters usually never match perfectly. Let the fish settle in for a couple days and start eating again, then bring copper up over a 3 day span to therapeutic levels. Ive been using brute cans of premixed water with the copper already matched to the qt tank, so parameters should be closer. 50% wc every few days and adding Prime in every morning to detoxify the ammonia. I dose metro every other day as well during the first 2 weeks. I’ve also had better luck with copper power. Good luck on the future qt process, it can be stressful

can you use prime and copper together?
doesnt it effect the copper treatment?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

can you use prime and copper together?
doesnt it effect the copper treatment?

The jury is still out on that issue - strong reducing agents can break the copper/amine bond in these chelated copper products, releasing more toxic free copper. The chemical reactions are very complicated, and these ammonia reducing products will work on unbound ammonia first. However, if used in tanks with no free ammonia and/or if they are overdosed, they can start working on the amine chelated copper meds. I never use sodium thiosulfate or ammonia binding products in tanks that I’m using amine chelated copper in.

 

[Aquatica Services Pattaya]

now I have an Asfur Angel going through the same symptoms in the QT ...been in there now for like 7-8 days doing fine eating and all....just overnight he turns into this....same symptoms ...can not keep himself floating and some twitching reflexes turn him up to just sink down......
Need to find out what is doing this....
is in a QT tank under cupramine..daily 50% water changes (cupramine kept stable by adding to new water)
can not have been bullied or anything as he was not put into the tank with the other fish yet...he has his own enclosure inside the tank.

 

[Aquatica Services Pattaya]

passed away now too...few hours later

 

[littlefoxx]

passed away now too...few hours later

Im sorry to hear are you having any aggression issues? Kinda looked like there might be a little which can also add stress especially with that powder blue in there

 

[Jay Hemdal]

now I have an Asfur Angel going through the same symptoms in the QT ...been in there now for like 7-8 days doing fine eating and all....just overnight he turns into this....same symptoms ...can not keep himself floating and some twitching reflexes turn him up to just sink down......
Need to find out what is doing this....
is in a QT tank under cupramine..daily 50% water changes (cupramine kept stable by adding to new water)
can not have been bullied or anything as he was not put into the tank with the other fish yet...he has his own enclosure inside the tank.

One thing I notice about your tank is that there are a lot of fish and the water always looks cloudy. I’m not sure if that is a direct cause of this issue, but it is something visually different than from what I’d like to see in quarantine tank.

Are you managing ammonia only through water changes?

Remember that copper only manages external protozoan diseases. There are some internal diseases that are tough to diagnose and impossible to treat.

I once had a west African angel doing great in quarantine. It was a rare fish, so I did a photo shoot with it. I used a flash, but I was careful not to shock the fish too much. An hour after the photos, I found the fish twitching and unable to swim. The next day it was dead. Upon necropsy, I discovered it had an internal nematode infection.

 

[ga2040]

I would even doubt the collection procedure of the supplier involved on these angels.

 

[Aquatica Services Pattaya]

One thing I notice about your tank is that there are a lot of fish and the water always looks cloudy. I’m not sure if that is a direct cause of this issue, but it is something visually different than from what I’d like to see in quarantine tank.

Are you managing ammonia only through water changes?

Remember that copper only manages external protozoan diseases. There are done internal diseases that are tough to diagnose and impossible to treat.

I once had a west African angel doing great in quarantine. It was a rare fish, so I did a photo shoot with it. I used a flash, but I was careful not to shock the fish too much. An hour after the photos, I found the fish twitching and unable to swim. The next day it was dead. Upon necropsy, I discovered it had an internal nematode infection.

to be honest I start more and more going the internal infwction or parasite route as NO other external signs...no red streaming..no spots or marks...eating good swimming ok and overnight they seem to not be able to swim.....
I am going to post a new thread about METRONIDAZOLE asking for help about that there...maybe you guys can share your experience and knoweledge there??
thanks

as for the cloudiness its realy more the state of the tanks (they get cleaned with green scrub sponges at times plus the quality of the camera maybe)
but yes ammonia control in the small QT tanks (4x40lt but only fill up to 30lt max) is purely controled by water changes...we have 2000lt fresh ocean water stored and temp controled which we use to do every other day 50% and 85% waterchanges. Ph of the ocean water is constant 7.6 so no peaks there.
the larger QT tank (200lt) has 2 big sponge filters and we also do daily 40-50% water changes
we start all fish in the smaller ones with StressGuard and or Prazipro to after few days to go in the big QT under constant 4.5-5.5 copper readings.