Experiment converting corals to freshwater

[Jib]

Oh, so it is the same dude?

Same dude. Seems to be a trend with this guy.

Freshwater clownfish

So,, I'm in working progress of an experiment... Can't say much just now but will update on my YouTube channel FreshwaterCorals (will post updates on this and the yt channel) So the basic concept is transfaring ocelerace clowns from saltwater to full freshwater. In short just a little...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Sharkbait19]

You're encouraging him to kill animals for youtube hits.

Absolutely not! I'm only interested to see the outcome for scientific purposes. I wouldn't want to see this experiment in the wrong hands either!

 

[BackToTheReef]

.

 

[BZOFIQ]

I'd love to hear from our own skeptical reefkeeper Richard Ross @Thales on this subject.

Rich?

 

[cshouston]

I was friends with a guy just like this when I was in college. He never finished high school, had no education in the sciences, couldn’t spell things correctly, but would come up with these wild ideas for things that were scientifically implausible.

I mean, good on him for trying, but I think the lack of education is what lead him to believe that he could be right. Classic DUNNING-KRUGER EFFECT in action.

 

[Sharkbait19]

A long period of time does not constitute "a few years". His zoanthids are not sexually reproducing, they are not changing, they are just dying. And how much biology have you studied? What science qualifications do you have? I'm currently a sophomore in high school, and I took AP Biology and AP Chemistry last year; I got 5's on both of them. Your blatant lack of biology knowledge makes me wonder if you even passed freshman bio. If you're going to insult me, don't insult one of the very few things I'm good at.

I'm currently a senior and got a 5 on AP Bio as well. What's your point? Of course corals that aren't sexually reproducing wouldn't work! If you knew biology, you would remember the part where organisms evolve under certain conditions. There have been numerous experiments (or just looking at the fact that organisms have evolved) to prove this. If you dump corals straight into freshwater they will die, even 5 years of running the experiment would be too fast. I don't doubt that you know what you're talking about, but all I'm saying is that the experiment as a whole is possible, whether that takes ten years or ten million years! Knowing what I know about biology and other sciences, I simply took interest in such a topic. Not this experiment in particular, but just this topic as a whole because I do in fact know exactly what I am talking about!!

 

[92Miata]

Absolutely not! I'm only interested to see the outcome for scientific purposes. I wouldn't want to see this experiment in the wrong hands either!

There's no scientific purpose here. This is not how science works.

He has no hypothesis.
He has no proposal for the method with which zoanthids would adapt.
He has no basic understanding of the subject at hand.
He's testing on animals with no ethical oversite.

And when people are telling him why his experiment is woefully designed, and cannot work - he's ignoring them instead of redesigning the experiment.

This is not science. This is a teenager torturing animals for youtube hits, and you're encouraging him because you don't have a functional understanding of biology or how the scientific process works at all.

 

[flampton]

OP I'll agree to your experiment if you can mention one thing about the cellular adaptations needed to survive in the different ionic composition surrounding the cell. Also this needs to be in relation to the coral animal (multicellular), the Symbiodinium (unicellular eukaryote), and the rest of the bacterial holobiont(unicellular prokaryotes)

 

[flampton]

I'm currently a senior and got a 5 on AP Bio as well. What's your point? Of course corals that aren't sexually reproducing wouldn't work! If you knew biology, you would remember the part where organisms evolve under certain conditions. There have been numerous experiments (or just looking at the fact that organisms have evolved) to prove this. If you dump corals straight into freshwater they will die, even 5 years of running the experiment would be too fast. I don't doubt that you know what you're talking about, but all I'm saying is that the experiment as a whole is possible, whether that takes ten years or ten million years! Knowing what I know about biology and other sciences, I simply took interest in such a topic. Not this experiment in particular, but just this topic as a whole because I do in fact know exactly what I am talking about!!

You in fact don't know what you're talking about and are encouraging despicable behavior. 5 in AP Bio, stay on track and you may know what you're talking about in 9 more years of singular study in the topic on hand

 

[Sharkbait19]

There's no scientific purpose here. This is not how science works.

He has no hypothesis.
He has no proposal for the method with which zoanthids would adapt.
He has no basic understanding of the subject at hand.
He's testing on animals with no ethical oversite.

And when people are telling him why his experiment is woefully designed, and cannot work - he's ignoring them instead of redesigning the experiment.

This is not science. This is a teenager torturing animals for youtube hits, and you're encouraging him because you don't have a functional understanding of biology or how the scientific process works at all.

Except the part where I do understand how the scientific processes work. I wonder how many times I need to repeat myself to get my point through.
I have interest in this topic. That is it.
If you read this whole thread you'd find me saying that he has no hypothesis, and that may be why he is consulting this forum. FOR ADVICE!
I never said "go out and kill coral for youtube hits!". I never said I support that. All I said is, theoretically, it is possible.
And do you want to know how I know this? BECAUSE I KNOW HOW BOTH BIOLOGY AND THE SCIENTIFIC PROCESS WORKS!! Why the heck else would I even take interest in this thread?!

 

[ichthyogeek]

Well this thread is a hot mess...but the mess aside, here's information, so anybody actually interested in doing an experiment like this has the knowledge available:

1. Regardless of where one lives, it doesn't mean that you can completely ignore ethical guidelines. AAALAC is an international organization, not just in the USA. Additionally, even looking at the Wikipedia Page for animal welfare in the UK brings up ASPA. Regardless of if it applies to vertebrates or invertebrates, if you're engaging in an experiment, you need to make ethical decisions. Even if the standards are low, hold yourself to higher standards. Look into an Institutional Review Board. "Typically 5 members, at least one scientist, at least one non-scientist". You literally have more than an entire review board (yes there are scientists, and non-scientists on this thread) on this forum, with the majority telling you this is a Bad Idea, or asking for more information which you aren't providing.
   
   
2. Where is your scientific base for proposing this experiment? Under what actual rigorously proven scientific facts are you basing this off of? Has some lab somewhere said "zoanthids of the butt muncher variety tolerate lower salinities better than zoanthids of the face hugger variety"? And I don't mean "this one aussie gold torch has been shown to live in brackish water, therefore a random colony of zoanthids I've acquired can do the same". Show us the information on why the zoanthid variety you have, is tolerant of wide (1.010-1.030) variations in salinity. If a lab has done it, link the paper. If there's an article about it, link the article. If there is literally any post about it that you have not posted, then show us.
   
   
3. As so. many. people. have said in this thread: if you're doing it with one colony of asexually reproducing coral (zoanthids, Aussie Gold Torches, etc.) , the chances are very low. Even with epigenetics coming into play, you'd need to prove that you can repeat the experiment (multiple colonies), AND that the benefits have to pass on to the offspring. And that means having the coral sexually reproduce, something that really, only Acroporas and other SPS corals are being experimented with at the moment. We don't know much about softie spawns, LPS spawns, or really a lot of non-coral spawns. So far we're limited to Acropora research, and documenting rock flower anemone spawns. Jamie Craggs does SPS spawning research, look him up.
   
   
4. Stephen Palumbi, Stanford University. He does research on how corals adapt to heat stressors. Look at his basis for WHY he does what he does (hint: he's actually working with corals that are nearby and/or used to temperature swings, not just sticking any random coral he finds into super hot pools).
   
   
5. An excerpt from the TOS: "The owners of Reef2Reef adhere to certain standards of ethical fish keeping. We believe that freshwater and saltwater aquarists are directly responsible for the health and well being of any aquatic animals in their care, be they fish or invertebrate. These responsibilities include providing a healthy aquatic environment, humane treatment, humane euthanasia (when required), as well as obtaining and disposing of aquatic animals in such a way that does not damage sensitive local ecosystems. Posts advocating the illegal collection of fish or invertebrates, inhumane treatment, flushing live animals down the toilet, or releasing them into the wild will be removed." . This does not sound humane, nor that you are providing a healthy aquatic environment.

I don't condone an experiment like this. There's not enough scientific backing or knowledge to justify it by this individual.

 

[Ribo15]

I find it hilarious that we are all taking this thread so seriously when so many aspects are comical. The biggest being that he is only a few months into saltwater keeping and this little “experiment” will never get off the ground. We won’t hear from this thread after a month when he realizes there is no way it can work and that’ll be the end of that.

 

[Jib]

I'm currently a senior and got a 5 on AP Bio as well.

This comment actually doesn't help your credibility.

 

[Sharkbait19]

You in fact don't know what you're talking about and are encouraging despicable behavior. 5 in AP Bio, stay on track and you may know what you're talking about in 9 more years of singular study in the topic on hand

I. AM. NOT. ENDORSING. HIS. STUPID. CHANNEL!!!
How about you reread this thread to find that out? From an evolutionary standpoint, coral, like any animal that has adapted from saltwater to freshwater, has the potential to do so. But it takes a LOT of time. If geographically isolated, animals have the potential to change. I'm not saying it should be done irresponsibly. All I am saying is in certain conditions over a long period of time and reproduction, coral, like any form of evolution, can change, as both you and I both have studied.

 

[92Miata]

Except the part where I do understand how the scientific processes work. I wonder how many times I need to repeat myself to get my point through.
I have interest in this topic. That is it.
If you read this whole thread you'd find me saying that he has no hypothesis, and that may be why he is consulting this forum. FOR ADVICE!
I never said "go out and kill coral for youtube hits!". I never said I support that. All I said is, theoretically, it is possible.
And do you want to know how I know this? BECAUSE I KNOW HOW BOTH BIOLOGY AND THE SCIENTIFIC PROCESS WORKS!! Why the heck else would I even take interest in this thread?!

Continually repeating that you understand something doesn't make it true.


The fact that you think this is a viable - and, I quote "Well designed" experiment proves that you are woefully out of your depth here.


The proper advice to give him is that this line of experiment is a gigantic waste of time, and will entirely useless, and will kill his test subjects.

Its not to encourage him to do so.

Just stop. Stop encouraging him to kill animals. You absolutely are endorsing him - whether you mean to or not. Just Stop.

. All I am saying is in certain conditions over a long period of time and reproduction, coral, like any form of evolution, can change, as both you and I both have studied.

Which has literally nothing to do with what he's trying to do.

 

[Sharkbait19]

This comment actually doesn't help your credibility.

I'm sorry AP bio is only open to juniors and seniors in my school.

 

[ichthyogeek]

So while many things in science might be highly unlikely, few should be deemed impossible. After all science is evolving and changing and if we as "scientists" (I am not one but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night) simply write things off as such then we begin to "believe" and our study drifts to dogma rather than openminded science.

Sorry, this has been a pet peeve of mine with science and archeology for a while now.



***Warning, unscientific and unresearched post coming. I am not a scientist! :D *** (I just think about stuff a lot)

While I think we would have seen this in nature if it were possible I think this is a great starting point for a thought experiment.

Could it be possible for something like this brackish torch to adapt to freshwater given the right conditions? What would determine success/failure? Is it simply salinity? Is it a combo of salinity and other water chemistry? How would you test for it?

How would I do it if I REALLY wanted to test it out?

I would set up a series of small tanks on racks, say 3 rows of multiple columns. Each tank getting the exact same temp, flow, filtration, feeding, and lighting regime.

Column A would be my control. All saltwater, the way a "normal" tank would be set up. And monitored for everything possible to ensure levels of appropriate parameters stay consistent across the test tanks

Column B Would be the "full change" column where I am changing all water parameters at once.

Column C would be salinity changes only, dosing to maintain ph, alkalinity, calcium, magnesium, etc.

Column D would then be salinity plus one other parameter change.

And so on down the road.

Then I would probably test each row with different "fresh water" types (or keep them all the same for multiple sets of results).

Row 1 being straight RO, unlikely to succeed there would be my guess.

Row 2 might be fresh water with target parameters like one of the rift lakes with ph, alkalinity, mineral content to match.

Row 3 might be fresh water built with different parameters than the above.

Slowly changing over the course of the test period. In this case I think using a clone, fragged heads of the aforementioned torch, would be ideal. That way you have the same organism in each set of water conditions to see if it is plausible, reducing variables.

Granted, from a biological/physiology stand point I am not even sure this is possible with a torch, or anything else. And if I remember right don't most brackish fish/animals start in freshwater as juveniles and transition to salt as adults (or this used to be the belief, the science might have changed on this one), rarely living their whole lives in one or the other?

But this testing methodology probably wouldn't get a lot of hits on youtube...

This. This is a path to good science. It could use tweaking, and requires a very large scientific literature search first, but it's on the right path. I have one nitpicky thing: you need to include repetition. That means either doing the experiment over and over again, or having multiple racks. Ultimately, the question at hand is, "how long does it take an organism to transition from being stenohaline to euryhaline". Tissue culture might (MIGHT!) be another viable option for an in vitro experiment.

The words you're looking for are "stenohaline" (hardy to a small variation in salinity) and "euryhaline" (hardy to a wide variation in salinity). Stenohaline species include clownfish, goldfish, and neon tetras. Euryhaline species include florida flag fish (maybe), Guppies and Mollies, and bigger fish like Anguillidae eels, bull sharks, and salmon.

 

[Sharkbait19]

Continually repeating that you understand something doesn't make it true.


The fact that you think this is a viable - and, I quote "Well designed" experiment proves that you are woefully out of your depth here.


The proper advice to give him is that this line of experiment is a gigantic waste of time, and will entirely useless, and will kill his test subjects.

Its not to encourage him to do so.

Just stop. Stop encouraging him to kill animals. You absolutely are endorsing him - whether you mean to or not. Just Stop.


Which has literally nothing to do with what he's trying to do.

Well repetition sometimes is the only way to get facts into some peoples' thick skulls. I do not endorse him, please don't take it that way. I am looking at this in the way that I would design the experiment. If he won't do it right, I agree that he shouldn't. I apologize for any misinterpretations in my words. I simply take interest in the topic of evolution and biology. And I think we could all agree, freshwater corals would be pretty dang cool. Sadly, they don't exist, and there is likely a reason they don't and probably never would. However, in the lens of evolution, any species can adapt.

 

[Eric1493]

I'm currently a senior and got a 5 on AP Bio as well. What's your point? Of course corals that aren't sexually reproducing wouldn't work! If you knew biology, you would remember the part where organisms evolve under certain conditions. There have been numerous experiments (or just looking at the fact that organisms have evolved) to prove this. If you dump corals straight into freshwater they will die, even 5 years of running the experiment would be too fast. I don't doubt that you know what you're talking about, but all I'm saying is that the experiment as a whole is possible, whether that takes ten years or ten million years! Knowing what I know about biology and other sciences, I simply took interest in such a topic. Not this experiment in particular, but just this topic as a whole because I do in fact know exactly what I am talking about!!

My point is that when someone insults my knowledge on a subject that I have experience in, I feel the need to justify myself. I didn't say that the corals would never evolve, but I did say that they wouldn't evolve in his time frame, and wouldn't evolve to what he wanted them to evolve into. You obviously at least know that the corals won't meaningfully evolve in this time frame, and you also know that they will die in freshwater. So why do you support his experiment? If you know how absurd and impossible his success is, why do you still think this is a good idea? It may, and I am no expert on coral genetics, be possible over thousands of years, but if you know it won't happen in 5 or 10, why do you still support this. You know that he doesn't have sexually reproducing zoanthids, but you continue to support this experiment. It's these things that confuse me because you claim to have the experience, but you make claims that don't align with the experience.

 

[KrisReef]

I had an electrical failure last evening and missed the start of this cool thread.

I've known a lot of folk that keep coral in their fresh water tanks. This is old news and I think the guy is only interested in making a cool video channel and all of us watching. No need to hate.

They take the coral out and bleach it when it gets covered in algae. HA! It can be done!