Experimental Ich Treatment... Wish me luck.

Vague Doctor · Jan 20, 2018

I have a pretty trustworthy LFS less than 5 minutes from my house and I'm a frequent shopper. I often stop in on new delivery days just to check out what they get in and the like.... anyway, so I brought up today that it appeared that some of my little black bar chromis' were exhibiting symptoms of ich, or some similar disease. I do not have a quarantine tank, so I was exploring my options, which everyone knows are "reef safe" treatments that may or may not work or buying a quarantine tank to treat and leaving the display tank fallow. This is where our story begins earlier this afternoon.

I had my eye on a little nano tank that I figured I'd buy and use as a hospital tank to nurse the little fellows back to health. I told my LFS' curator this plan and she protested outright, insisting I should not quarantine as she believes the transport of the fish from tank to tank and place to place stresses the animals out more than changing water parameters, and she suggested a special cocktail that she makes in the store. Her claims are that it kills ich and many other diseases both bacterial and parasitic without harming corals, nems, shrimp or snails. The only tricks are to shut off your protein skimmer, remove your carbon and follow the dosing instructions precisely and to administer 3 doses over 6 days. Sounds like a piece of cake right? Well, we will see. Worst case scenario, my entire tank crashes, NBD. (*sarcasm*)

So this is my newest tank and I've not had problems with disease before, but it's bound to happen to all of us eventually. Decided to document this "experimental" treatment, and all my animals are on the line. (photos attached)

Photo 1: my tank
Photo 2: the medicine in question

CNDReef · Jan 20, 2018

Good luck and keep us posted

Vague Doctor · Jan 20, 2018

Now since I've established what's going on here, I'll say it's been 2 hours since my initial dose. Nothing seems to be different. I'll update this thread in about 6 hours or so.

Greenstreet.1 · Jan 20, 2018

Well let me be the one to ask what’s in the cocktail

Vague Doctor · Jan 20, 2018

Greenstreet.1 said:
Well let me be the one to ask what’s in the cocktail

She wouldn't go into all that. She did however say that she'd worked out the dosage per gallon for active ingredients that WOULD otherwise kill all inverts in question and has been using this stuff for about 3 years now, and that she'd worked some amino acids and other "goodies" into the mix to get the desired results. Based on the quality of livestock they sell and keep and the variety of animals they are experienced with I tend to trust their judgement, but even still this is a gamble. Sure they've sold me some really nice stuff and changed my methods on a few points of reef keeping (for the better, I will add) but this could possibly wreck everything I have in this tank. There are 2 green star polyp colonies (1 branching and 1 crust), a monti, a duncan, a red mushroom, kenya tree, zoa and xenia frags as well as a black widow BTA with 6 snails, 3 black bar chromis and two mocha clowns. I haven't had them long, but I certainly do not want anything to happen to them.

I'll name the LFS at the end of the results of this experiment and you guys can bug them to send you a bottle, or you'll know to never use it. I'm sure if they are asked enough times, they'll make it available through their website. For better or for worse, this will be documented and other reefers will know whether or not to trust it. Finally caught a decent pic of one of the cyst covered black bars for *before* pictures. As you can see, it's definitely looking like the early signs of ich or perhaps some sort of fungus.

andrewkw · Jan 20, 2018

Why doesn't the store just use it and not sell any fish with any diseases? They'd even be able to charge more then the competition.

Bug235 · Jan 20, 2018

Vague Doctor said:
Now since I've established what's going on here, I'll say it's been 2 hours since my initial dose. Nothing seems to be different. I'll update this thread in about 6 hours or so.

Try this stuff called Reef Keeper reef safe it seems to be an immune booster and works for me as long as the fish is eating and indecent health the only affect is it it turns your skimmer cup green but I’m telling you the stuff works and I don’t believe in any of that ich stuff I don’t believe it works at all the only thing that works is quarantining and copper but try this stuff I have a long story about it which I’ll save it but it does seem to work so I introduced it to my local fish store and they cannot keep it on the shelves

Greenstreet.1 · Jan 20, 2018

I’m following.

Don’t see why she can’t tell you what’s in it unless she herself designed it and trying to get it out there.

kschweer · Jan 20, 2018

Hopefully it works out for you. I would be scared to put anything into my tank that I didn’t know what it was or even have an idea what it might be. One rule I held strong to always was “don’t add it if you can’t test for it” when it came to adding any “chemical” to my tank.

Humblefish · Jan 20, 2018

Vague Doctor said:
Her claims are that it kills ich and many other diseases both bacterial and parasitic without harming corals, nems, shrimp or snails.

I wish you luck, but a "special cocktail" that supposedly treats parasites + bacterial infections is unlikely. In fact, the only "somewhat reef safe?" medication I know that can do that is metronidazole, but it still will not fully eradicate ich & velvet. And it's therapeutic effect on bacteria is limited to anaerobic bacterial fish diseases.

Vague Doctor · Jan 20, 2018

andrewkw said:
Why doesn't the store just use it and not sell any fish with any diseases? They'd even be able to charge more then the competition.

These chromids were in good health when I got them and were in the tank for several weeks. The cysts appeared on the largest of the three after I started adding coral frags from varied sources and then that retro started getting really aggressive. I'm guessing the stress caused the disease to spread as it was a peaceful tank before and the three of them were pretty cooperative. I suppose I should have provided more context here. There's a history with all this and I decided to start this thread at the last minute. Please bear with me as I clarify the situation and the events leading up to this point as you guys ask questions. This tank is right next to my office desk so I'm watching it the entire time this treatment takes place over the first 48 hours since it's the weekend and I'm extremely curious to see if these mystery spots disappear with the use of this stuff, as I'm sure others will be as well.

Vague Doctor · Jan 20, 2018

Humblefish said:
I wish you luck, but a "special cocktail" that supposedly treats parasites + bacterial infections is unlikely. In fact, the only "somewhat reef safe?" medication I know that can do that is metronidazole, but it still will not fully eradicate ich & velvet. And it's therapeutic effect on bacteria is limited to anaerobic bacterial fish diseases.

I'm well aware of that, that's why I'm documenting this and posting it for other reefer's consideration. Other customers in the store had likewise joined the conversation and were convinced this stuff works when I voiced my skepticism and concern, and either this is an elaborate scam that is nothing but snake oil or something that is at the very least- a decent accomplishment for a small business owner.

Deinonych · Jan 20, 2018

Good luck. Personally, I would not put anything in my tank without knowing what it is. There's no telling what kind of chemical or biological impact it will have, but keep us posted.

Vague Doctor · Jan 20, 2018

Deinonych said:
Good luck. Personally, I would not put anything in my tank without knowing what it is. There's no telling what kind of chemical or biological impact it will have, but keep us posted.

TBH this thread exists at least 50% because I need to share this anxiety with other human beings. XD

I want this problem resolved and I don't want to mess around with things that don't work. That's why we're all talking here today fellas.

*Update* so far, so good. No change in coral behavior and the shrimp are still behaving as they usually do. I will note that several hours after the initial dose, the retros are exhibiting schooling behavior again and the largest of the three isn't attacking the other retros as he had been since the cysts appeared. He is however, seeking a lot of attention from the cleaner shrimp as he has been since the spots spread all over his body. Before I noted the spots, he did not particularly care to visit the skunk cleaners.

NeuroticAquatics · Jan 20, 2018

Wow...I’m following along to see how this goes. It seems next to impossible that a random LFS owner would be able to create a “cocktail” like that. Major companies that have been in the industry for decades have not been able to concoct anything like that and that’s with money and brains attacking the problem. What is her background?

Jeepguy242 · Jan 20, 2018

tagged

Greenstreet.1 · Jan 20, 2018

I want this problem resolved and I don't want to mess around with things that don't work. That's why we're all talking here today fellas.

Just a question but how you know this works ? Cause she say so are did you see or know something you are not saying ?

Once again just a question.

Jeepguy242 · Jan 20, 2018

Greenstreet.1 said:
I want this problem resolved and I don't want to mess around with things that don't work. That's why we're all talking here today fellas.

Just a question but how you know this works ? Cause she say so are did you see or know something you are not saying ?

Once again just a question.

Vague Doctor said:
Based on the quality of livestock they sell and keep and the variety of animals they are experienced with I tend to trust their judgement, but even still this is a gamble.

CNDReef · Jan 20, 2018

Major companies also make money from fish dying

Jose Mayo · Jan 20, 2018

The "cocktail", by coloration, appears to contain some dissolved nitrofuran, the droplet meniscus on the wall of the vessel suggests high viscosity ... by claiming action on parasites, bacteria and protozoa somewhat resembles Aquatronics' "Paragon II" compound of furantoine, metronidazole and kanamycin, now out of the market. However, "Paragon II" had potential to damage the biological filter of the aquarium, which requires monitoring the nitrogen cycle, to avoid surprises.

Best regards