Failed again - QT and Fallow Period

[Punchanello]

Long story short, I pulled my 7 relatively healthy (except from ich exposure) fish and treated them with copper for 4 weeks following best practice. I lost 3 in this process presumably from the accumulated stress. I left my DT 3 months fallow. After 1 and a half months observation and no signs of illness I moved my treated fish back in to the DT and within minutes saw 1 small spot on my butterfly. I have no idea how it survived or how I missed it when observing the fish.

At this point things were said and done that I'm not proud of o_O (swearing, kicking an inanimate object etc.). I've undertaken numerous postmortems, checked and re-checked but just can't work out what I have done wrong. I am really sad and quite ashamed at losing fish.

Here's what I believe though:

1. QT absolutely works as does a fallow period and I thank @Humblefish for all the great content and advice.
2. QTing all fish and treating where needed or prophylactically is best practice
3. I have had very poor results with QT but it's pretty much my fault. I 'm stressing the fish out, I'm cross-contaminating, the water condition deteriorates, I dunno. I mess up.
4. I have lost more fish in QT, whether they started out sick or healthy, than I have in my DT.
5. I just can't go another 3 months fallow. It's heartbreaking and with the resources, time and space I have available just too tough on the fish.

I have read, in a widely circulated and re-blogged FAQ that ich can stop reproducing after 12 months if no new ich strains are introduced. Presumably they become too inbred or something. Is this true or just an often repeated myth? If it is I was thinking of trying to implement a hybrid ich management and quarantine approach.

I was hoping for some comments, advice or warnings on this.

1. I'd will keep quarantining but will switch from copper to TTM. I am not having success with copper at all. This is in the hope that I can prevent new ich strains entering the DT.
2. I will install a large UV sterilizer in my DT and continue to feed high quality whole foods to attempt to reduce the likelihood of an outbreak.
3. I will not introduce ich susceptible fish like Acanthurus tangs (any other fish that should be on this list?).

Thoughts?

 

[HotRocks]

Long story short, I pulled my 7 relatively healthy (except from ich exposure) fish and treated them with copper for 4 weeks following best practice. I lost 3 in this process presumably from the accumulated stress. I left my DT 3 months fallow. After 1 and a half months observation and no signs of illness I moved my treated fish back in to the DT and within minutes saw 1 small spot on my butterfly. I have no idea how it survived or how I missed it when observing the fish.

At this point things were said and done that I'm not proud of o_O (swearing, kicking an inanimate object etc.). I've undertaken numerous postmortems, checked and re-checked but just can't work out what I have done wrong. I am really sad and quite ashamed at losing fish.

Here's what I believe though:

1. QT absolutely works as does a fallow period and I thank @Humblefish for all the great content and advice.
2. QTing all fish and treating where needed or prophylactically is best practice
3. I have had very poor results with QT but it's pretty much my fault. I 'm stressing the fish out, I'm cross-contaminating, the water condition deteriorates, I dunno. I mess up.
4. I have lost more fish in QT, whether they started out sick or healthy, than I have in my DT.
5. I just can't go another 3 months fallow. It's heartbreaking and with the resources, time and space I have available just too tough on the fish.

I have read, in a widely circulated and re-blogged FAQ that ich can stop reproducing after 12 months if no new ich strains are introduced. Presumably they become too inbred or something. Is this true or just an often repeated myth? If it is I was thinking of trying to implement a hybrid ich management and quarantine approach.

I was hoping for some comments, advice or warnings on this.

1. I'd will keep quarantining but will switch from copper to TTM. I am not having success with copper at all. This is in the hope that I can prevent new ich strains entering the DT.
2. I will install a large UV sterilizer in my DT and continue to feed high quality whole foods to attempt to reduce the likelihood of an outbreak.
3. I will not introduce ich susceptible fish like Acanthurus tangs (any other fish that should be on this list?).

Thoughts?

Couple of questions.

What type of copper did you treat with? What test kit did you use? What level of copper were you treating at?

Can you explain your process for dosing copper, how long you took getting to therapeutic level and how you removed the copper?

Did you add anything new to DT during copper? It it all possible that a fish you thought you had lost previously remained in your DT during fallow or in the sump?

 

[Big G]

Just one spot? Butterflies are prone to lympho. Are you sure it's not lympho that you saw on the fish? It's a usually harmless virus that never completely leaves the fish.

 

[Punchanello]

What type of copper did you treat with? What test kit did you use? What level of copper were you treating at?

I treated with Seachem Cupramine. I used a Salifert test kit. .5ppm.

This is the part I am least confident with and if I were to use copper again i'd wait until I get a Hanna checker.

Can you explain your process for dosing copper, how long you took getting to therapeutic level and how you removed the copper?

My first couple of attempts I raised it to .5 ppm over 2 days as on the instructions but since then I have been doing it more slowly over the course of 3-5 days. I removed the copper doing water changes and adding carbon. I actually kept them at that dose for 4 weeks. I was getting quite worried because they were all starting to look worse for wear for that long period.

Did you add anything new to DT during copper? It it all possible that a fish you thought you had lost previously remained in your DT during fallow or in the sump?

No, definitely no fish alive or otherwise left over. In fact, I haven't lost any fish in the DT for a long time. I knew that ich was present in the DT for about 6 weeks. I wanted to do the best thing for the fish so even though I hadn't had deaths (yet) I wanted to make sure so went fallow.

Is it possible a frag plug or a coral could have been added with ich in it's tomont stage? My other theory is cross contamination. The QT and the DT are at opposite ends of the house and I never use the same equipment or nets etc on both. But it is possible my kids were mucking around. These are the only things I can think of that might be a possibility.

 

[Punchanello]

Just one spot? Butterflies are prone to lympho. Are you sure it's not lympho that you saw on the fish? It's a usually harmless virus that never completely leaves the fish.

I hoped it was but now my tangs have spots sadly.

 

[Humblefish]

I was hoping for some comments, advice or warnings on this.

1. I'd will keep quarantining but will switch from copper to TTM. I am not having success with copper at all. This is in the hope that I can prevent new ich strains entering the DT.
2. I will install a large UV sterilizer in my DT and continue to feed high quality whole foods to attempt to reduce the likelihood of an outbreak.
3. I will not introduce ich susceptible fish like Acanthurus tangs (any other fish that should be on this list?).

Thoughts?

1. TTM effectively treats ich, but not velvet. I'm not sure how big of a problem that pathogen is in Australia, but it's a huge issue here in the US.

2. Sounds like a good idea.

3. Acanthurus seem to be the most susceptible, but angels/butterflies are sometimes badly affected as well.

 

[Punchanello]

1. TTM effectively treats ich, but not velvet. I'm not sure how big of a problem that pathogen is in Australia, but it's a huge issue here in the US.

2. Sounds like a good idea.

3. Acanthurus seem to be the most susceptible, but angels/butterflies are sometimes badly affected as well.

DO you know if there is any truth to the idea that ich will "burn itself out" if there is no new addition of inch strains?

 

[Humblefish]

DO you know if there is any truth to the idea that ich will "burn itself out" if there is no new addition of inch strains?

There is some truth to it, but you're looking at ~ 4 years on average.

 

[Punchanello]

1. TTM effectively treats ich, but not velvet. I'm not sure how big of a problem that pathogen is in Australia, but it's a huge issue here in the US.

2. Sounds like a good idea.

3. Acanthurus seem to be the most susceptible, but angels/butterflies are sometimes badly affected as well.

Well, if I can get my copper right it seems reasonable to keep trying.

 

[Tamberav]

Sorry for your losses. I do TTM and have had great success with it. I also use the calendar to dose prazi x2 for only 24 hours.

My survival rate with TTM is pretty high..even on leopard wrasses who are supposed to stress easily (new box of sand every time!).

It won't help velvet but I've never had much luck saving fish with velvet or Brook and they die in 24-48 hours in QT so the DT is spared at least. I have CP for that. I don't use copper simply because I don't have a Hanna test kit. I used copper twice years ago...once successfully on ich covered clowns and poor outcome treating a wrasse who wasn't visibly sick and I probably overdosed the copper (who can really read those shades of pink well enough?)

I also have a conditioning tank with live rock and basically a mini DT. I put finiky fish in there first and get them eating good and then do TTM once they are settled. I used this with my leopards.

 

[ihavecrabs]

@Punchanello I don't think ich would present itself so quickly (within minutes). The reason being is those white marks you see are from after the ich has left the fish. I'm favoring Lymph from the stress or some other ailment.

If you have a local fish store that sells freshwater fish, you can pick up a black molly and slowly acclimate it (6-8 hours) to saltwater. That fish will have no immunity to saltwater diseases and since the fish is solid black, you should be able to detect velvet or ich quite easily.

One word of warning (for the molly) is that they are not the strongest swimmers and do get beat up quite easily. So if you have some fish that like to harass in the DT, maybe the sump would be best for the test.

 

[Skynyrd Fish]

I'd monitor for the next couple days. Also try a cleaner shrimp.

 

[Punchanello]

Thanks for all the help everybody. The white spots have left the Butterfly but they did look large so perhaps it was not ich. I do see some isolated spots on my tangs but certainly not clusters or "powdering".

I am assuming I have ich in the tank but will keep monitoring and am weighing up my options. At this stage I am not in a position to re-implement another 3 month fallow period but can do it in the coming months.

Until then I am mostly concerned with fishes health. I know there are no absolute answers but if I implement ich management and a large UV until I can go fallow again, will the fish still be in distress or suffer? I guess what mean is if fish aren't dying and look healthy during this period, is it possible they could still be suffering due to what I'm not seeing like ich in their gills?

 

[Frtdrmrose7]

There are quite a few people on this forum who use “ich management “ instead of eradication. The one thing I do know you will need to do is feed them as nutriously as possible, Nori, Garlic, vitamins, etc. I would think if the fish aren’t struggling to breathe or breathing heavily they aren’t suffering too much and hopefully they get started to manage it on their own. I wish you the best of luck.

 

[DeniseAndy]

I am so sorry for your issues. I feel your pain.
I have all my fish in QT and tank fallow till Jan16th. I accidentally recontaminated it one month in and had to start over. My fish are fine in QT, but I have never used copper. I treated with CP and metronidazole.
Good luck. I believe qt is the way to go. However, whatever issue I had that began my road to qt all fish was in my fish for years. Or was a toxin. I had not added fish in over a year and when I moved tanks, one month later fish were dying left and right. Horrible. I cried lots. Yelled, all that stuff. No new corals either. Just new tank. It was bad. Corals and nems were all fine as were all inverts. Just fish effected.
I hope you find more success with future fish. Try more captive bred if available near you.

 

[Punchanello]

Hi everyone. I'm still trying to work out what's happening in my tank.

I think the Longnose did in fact have lympho. After a few days in the DT it just disappeared. It wasn't ich like in the sense that there were only 2 or 3 white lumps present and they were quite large. Like a big whitehead or tag.

I lost my powderblue tang. He seemed to lose interest in food and slow down a lot within days. I put him in a hospital tank thinking he might have been stressed out by my other tangs but it was too late. He died 48 hours later. He was very thin but I couldn't see any marks or infection or visual ich like signs.

I've been watching what's left of my livestock closely. Everything seems ok except on my blue tang. It is about 12cm. It has a 1 and 1/2 cm area near the tail with a light powder. It's so fine I just can't capture it in a photo. Not salt or sugar like spots, more like icing sugar or a smudge of talc.

Any ideas what this might be?

 

[robert]

@Punchanello - no one answered this question."I have read, in a widely circulated and re-blogged FAQ that ich can stop reproducing after 12 months if no new ich strains are introduced. Presumably they become too inbred or something. Is this true or just an often repeated myth? If it is I was thinking of trying to implement a hybrid ich management and quarantine approach."

Its called senescence and its thought to be caused by the way ich multiplies. A single cell can only split so many times before enough genetic damage accumulates to kill off the cell line. Yes - it is actually very hard to keep a culture of ick around beyond thirty or so cycles even when provided a diet on non-immume host fish. (I think 50 is closer to the max - but that's just my opinion) Keeping a strain of ick around for research is such a big deal papers are written on that subject alone.

In other organisms which can both bud and sexually reproduce - it is only sexual reproduction which rejuvenates the cell line. I don't think anyone has witnessed
sexual reproduction in ick - so it, and the conditions which precipitate it may just be part of ich's life cycle we don't know anything about. It's not a myth.

The hybrid method of quarantine before introduction and management in the DT is practiced at some major aquariums (GA Aquarium) and to me it certainly makes sense on biger and/or complicated systems and I suspect many smaller systems could also function quite well with this approach.

 

[robert]

velvet is very fine - like powdered sugar. It sometimes produces a gold colored sheen - hence the name velvet. It's population grows exponentially and therefore it kills quickly. I wouldn't expect it to be an isolated patch - velvet is more generalized. Keep an eye on it - if it spreads to other fish or increases to the point where you can take a picture of it - post up and act quickly.