Fallow periods: Going Fishless

Discussion in 'Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis' started by Humblefish, Jan 31, 2015.

  1. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    The 76 day recommendation is just a slight tweak of the original 72 day fallow period: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fallow-periods-going-fishless.190324/#post-2495321

    But if I were to disregard the 72 day variant, I would recommend going fallow for 45 days. That takes the second longest total lifecycle period, as per "Burgess and Matthews, 1994a", into consideration.
     

  2. Gwitness

    Gwitness Well-Known Member

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    Okay good to know! And for example, if I wait for 45 days and put a fish in my refugium to test it out and it ends up getting a parasite on it, I would remove it, and then have to start the entire 76 days over again just because of one being in there for a couple days?
     
  3. RyanYWG

    RyanYWG New Member

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    Thank you for that link (https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/marine-ich-and-temperature.232825/). I especially like your conclusions, which mentions a period that should be sufficient as long as above a specific temperature. You also mention that is entirely up to us if we choose to shorten the fallow period from what you advocate, 76 days. (I unfortunately have this belief that world records can be beat [72 days]). I am going to agree with you, "We probably don’t know as much about ich as we think we do." - @Humblefish

    I am doing this research as I'm deciding how many days to QT my corals from diseases (corals only QT), in case there are Tomonts on the hard surface of corals (eg. small piece of live rock that the coral can't be detached from). I have a temperature controller that keeps the QT at 79F with one degree deviation (78F-80F). Maybe I should bump up my target temp by one degree?

    Now to choose; the amount of days that may be sufficient or what is advocated.
     
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  4. Brew12

    Brew12 Electrical Gru R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    In theory you could keep the fish in the refugium for up to 72 hours before you would need to restart the fallow period. The biggest risk with this idea is that a trophont could attach in the gills and not be visible. You really might be on to something though.
    I need to think about it more but it might be a very good idea to put a fish in the fuge for 60 hours or so and then move it into its own QT and observe it for a few weeks. This has possibilities for testing how effective the fallow period is.
     
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  5. Gwitness

    Gwitness Well-Known Member

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    I guess some things we couldn't see would be if the parasite was on the inside of the fish gills and what if there is ick in the water the fish is in, but that fish was eating good and built up immune system to prevent the parasite from getting on it??


    I don't know anything about this stuff but that's just two things that crossed my mind with putting a fish in for 60 hours and then watching it in a separate tank....
     
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  6. Brew12

    Brew12 Electrical Gru R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    A fish with immunity to Crypto will still act as a host. The parasite just doesn't feed as efficiently so it rarely gets large enough to be visible and reproduces in much lower numbers. Odds are that the moving around between tanks would be enough to reduce the fish's immunity via stress, but it is possible it won't.
     
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  7. Gwitness

    Gwitness Well-Known Member

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    Right so let's just say i go fallow for 45 days.... On day 45 I put the fish in the refugium for 60 hours and then pull it out and put it in a quarantine tank on its own to see if it shows any signs of having parasites.....well if we can't see them all the time on the fish or in the gills, then how would I know the fallow stage is done and the rest of my fish are good to go in there??

    What I was going to do is just put my purple tang or hippo tang in my 60 gallon refugium on day 45 and keep that fish in there only to see if it shows any signs of having the parasite and if it's good for say, 2 weeks then I'd put the rest in refugium also.....worst case scenario is my fish get something and I have to pull them out again and treat them and go fallow another 40 days.....

    That was my thought for now I guess
     
  8. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    45 days of isolation in a fishless environment would protect you from everything except the 72 day variant of ich. Every SW fish disease that is currently known to science, that is. I'm sure there are countless undiscovered diseases, strains, variants, etc. ;)

    Your best bet would be to use a black molly: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fallow-periods-going-fishless.190324/page-2#post-2855190

    However this is a flaw to this test: Theront excystment is very asynchronous. If you were to encounter the 72 day variant in your DT, how would you know when within the 72 day period that theronts would be released and thus fish could be infected? o_O With every study I have ever read, most are released within a week or two after the tomont encysts; but then it slows to a trickle on the "back end" of the life cycle. So, the "black molly test" only tells you if free swimmers are currently in the water so it would make sense to leave them in the DT for at least a couple of weeks for maximum exposure time. That is how most public aquariums "test the waters" of a DT they think might still be infected with a disease. ;)
     
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  9. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    ^^ I forgot to add that ich theronts die within 48 hrs if they do not find a fish host to feed upon. However, with velvet free swimmers (dinospores) it can be up to 15 days if light is present. Because velvet, a dinoflagellate, is able to draw energy from light.
     
  10. RyanYWG

    RyanYWG New Member

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    Up to 15 more days for Velvet? Page 1 of this thread states Velvet fallow is 6 weeks, which I've accepted until this new (to me) information. Has it been clarified if this 6 weeks includes if light is present or not?

    Thanks.
     
  11. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    6 weeks fallow is worst case scenario for velvet. It assumes lights have been running in an infected DT for 10-12 hrs per day because corals are present.
     
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  12. Gwitness

    Gwitness Well-Known Member

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    So if I add a molly and it's gets the parasite what do I do?? Add it to quarantine or just let it be?
     
  13. Gwitness

    Gwitness Well-Known Member

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    And does the molly method restart my fallow period if there is ick in the water still?
     
  14. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    Add to QT (for treatment) and restart the fallow period in the DT. :(

     
  15. ltrace

    ltrace Well-Known Member

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    I have passed the 76 day fallow period and have a black molly swimming in the DT for 4 days without any signs of disease. The fish in the QT are healthy. What are the procedures that I need to follow in putting the QT'd fish back in the DT?
     
  16. jeff williams

    jeff williams Well-Known Member

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    Were did the Mollie come from? Was she also in qt? If not you could have just possibly reintroduced something to the DT. If the Mollie was properly Qt'ed I would slow reintroduce a few fish at a time to avoid a possible ammonia spike. Did you keep your bacteria in the DT alive by feeding them during qt? If not your tank will need a cycle
     
  17. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    I would give the molly at least a full week to be sure. How many fish are going back into the DT from QT? So long as temp & SG match between the two, you can just transfer them right over without any further acclimation process.

    And just to be sure, it was a freshwater black molly you used right? ;)
     
  18. ltrace

    ltrace Well-Known Member

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    I will only be transferring a clown and kole tang. Yes it was a freshwater black molly.
     
  19. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    You can just transfer them right over then, so long as SG & temp match between both tanks.
     
  20. rog2961

    rog2961 Well-Known Member

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    Im treating my fallow tank right now for dinos with bleach. We know it kills dinos, I wonder if it kills ich too. Bleach is used to clean the tanks after all right? Could potentially shorten the fallow period.
     

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