Fallow periods: Going Fishless

Discussion in 'Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis' started by Humblefish, Jan 31, 2015.

  1. Brew12

    Brew12 Electrical Gru R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor Partner Member 2018

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2016
    Messages:
    11,660
    Likes Received:
    17,847
    Location:
    Decatur, AL
    Velvet is a single cell dinoflagellate named Amyloodiium Ocellatum. It is partially photosynthetic. I believe the term is mixiopic (but don't quote me on that) where it is photosynthetic and consumes outside nutrients.

    No need to turn of your lights. You are correct in that it needs a fish to complete its life cycle. It can live in the free swimming stage for a bit over 2 weeks without a fish host but that is it. Going fallow for 6 weeks will starve it out, lights on or off.
     
    Big G, Humblefish and YellowFinsReef like this.

  2. rich nyc

    rich nyc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2016
    Messages:
    503
    Likes Received:
    362
    Location:
    NYC
    sorry I am constantly getting new questions. So if you are pretty sure your tank had velvet, you only need 6 weeks of fallow?
    it sort of times well with qt of prazi followed by copper though my display tank wont have fish for about 84 days since I screwed up my qt.
     
  3. Brew12

    Brew12 Electrical Gru R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor Partner Member 2018

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2016
    Messages:
    11,660
    Likes Received:
    17,847
    Location:
    Decatur, AL
    Yes, 6 weeks for velvet, 76 days for Ich.
     
    Humblefish and rich nyc like this.
  4. Nstocks

    Nstocks Active Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2017
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    10
    If one doesn't want to wait 76 days, could the following work just as well, after removing all fish and invest (no corals in my tank):

    Bring temperature upto 40C for a few days if possible and safe
    Drain the system keeping all the rock and sand present
    Let the entire system dry out for at least 1 week
    Fill system with RO to rinse out dried organics
    Fill with saltwater
    Add bacteria
    Slowly add fish back following TTM

    By heating the water alone I believe this will disinfect, but by further drying it all out I believe absolutely everything would be nuked. (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164)

    Obviously this would mean the fish are going into a 'new' tank without bacteria, so bottled bacteria would be needed which makes it somewhat expensive but a lot quicker, as long as it's as effective. Adding the fish slowly would also help and the organics from the dried out rock would be a problem, depending on how 'dirty' they are in the first place. (mine are very, very clean)
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
  5. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Partner Member 2018

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2014
    Messages:
    19,309
    Likes Received:
    23,820
    Location:
    Navarre, FL
    @Nstocks Raising water temperature to 40C (104F) for 1 hour will kill all tomonts & theronts; however it will likely also eradicate most of the nitrifying bacteria in your tank, essentially uncycling it. I also don't know how safe it is to expose aquarium silicone seams to that high of a temperature.

    An easier/safer approach would be to dose chlorine @ 60ppm and maintain that concentration for 24 hrs. You can use a swimming pool test kit to test your chlorine level and this is a good dosing guide: http://dec.vermont.gov/sites/dec/files/dwgwp/DW/chlorinedosageemergencydisinfection.pdf

    After 24 hrs, you can run your pumps and use strong circulation to help evaporate all of the chlorine, or dose a water conditioner such as Prime or Amquel to neutralize the chlorine.

    No matter which route you take, remove all livestock you don't want to lose before proceeding. If you have any corals/inverts, these will still need to be isolated to a fishless environment for 76 days before being returned to the DT.
     
    Big G likes this.
  6. Nstocks

    Nstocks Active Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2017
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    10
    I agree, the 40C could cause issues for silicone and perhaps some equipment, plus finding a suitable heater could be very expensive!

    Would dosing chlorine to the rock and sand be a problem to add the fish 2 weeks later, even after a water conditioner and 100% water change?

    After 'nuking' the rocks/sand/system and using the TTM would it be reasonably safe to add the fish back the the display, minus the inverts (which cannot be treated for ich)?
     
  7. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Partner Member 2018

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2014
    Messages:
    19,309
    Likes Received:
    23,820
    Location:
    Navarre, FL
    It's possible both sand & rock would absorb some of the chlorine, and then leach it back out into the water at a later date. :eek: I would test for chlorine daily.

    You're going to need to dose a lot of "bacteria in a bottle" before even attempting it: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ammonia-control-in-a-hospital-tank.296119/#post-3620230

    Even then, I would use a Seachem ammonia alert badge for active monitoring, and keep some Prime or Amquel on hand just in case.

    Are you sure this is ich and not velvet? TTM will not eradicate the latter. o_O
     
  8. Nstocks

    Nstocks Active Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2017
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    10
    It better not be velvet! When I first researched saltwater, I remember reading that if one fish has velvet, the best thing to do it get rid of everything except equipment! Sure there are treatments (probably more so now that 5 years ago when I read about it)...

    I'm trying to get a hold of a DSLR for better identification but it white spots (ich) and slightly larger black spots.

    The tang is breathing more rapidly (I use skimmer and nano-bubble scrubbing so there's plenty of oxygen)
     
  9. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Partner Member 2018

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2014
    Messages:
    19,309
    Likes Received:
    23,820
    Location:
    Navarre, FL
    Velvet is far deadlier, but infected fish can be treated using Chloroquine or a copper based medication: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/

    As for the DT itself, velvet can be starved out by going 6 weeks fallow in there. No need to get rid of anything. ;)
     
    Maritimer and Big G like this.
  10. Nstocks

    Nstocks Active Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2017
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    10
    What if I treat for velvet, but its not velvet? Do more harm than good? Would I treat all fish the same, just to be sure and using Chloroquine would treat ich too (but not turbellarians)

    It doesn't appear to be velvet, it's not a dusting by any stretch of the imagination and the white dots can easily be counted (unlike Velvet)
     
  11. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Partner Member 2018

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2014
    Messages:
    19,309
    Likes Received:
    23,820
    Location:
    Navarre, FL
    CP (and copper) will treat both ich & velvet, so you'd be covered either way. But neither will treat turbellarians.

    This is my best treatment protocol for velvet: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/#post-2499437
     
  12. Nstocks

    Nstocks Active Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2017
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    10
    I'm just reading through your post protocol, very in depth and helpful!

    What are the risks of treating fish that don't actually have velvet? Let's assume it's not velvet but I treat for that anyway, would the fish be 'drugged' up with nothing for the drugs to attack? (like taking antibiotics when you don't need to)? Just think that some LFS dose copper to every fish they get in, regardless of any visible signs, just as a precaution.

    Regarding the rocks/sand/system. Again assuming the worse case scenario and it's velvet, would fallow be the best option (assuming 10 weeks for ich and velvet), or could something as previously discussed be implemented?
     
  13. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Partner Member 2018

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2014
    Messages:
    19,309
    Likes Received:
    23,820
    Location:
    Navarre, FL
    Every medication has potential side effects (appetite suppression, lethargy, oxygen deprivation, etc.) and copper is actually a liquid poison. It only works because most fish can survive longer in it than the parasites.

    Personally, I would just go fallow.
     
  14. Nstocks

    Nstocks Active Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2017
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    10
    I should have access to a good camera by the weekend; I'm quite certain it's ich and worms so I don't need to treat for velvet. I'm guessing all fish need to go through the same treatment which would be FW dip, tank transfer method and which ever product I can find in the UK for the worms.

    I'm doing more research but I haven't come across the use of chlorine dosing to kill diseases with live rock/sand that will be used again; do you have any further info on this please, is it for ich alone or would it help with the worms (have yet to research their life cycle).

    Thank you.
     
  15. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Partner Member 2018

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2014
    Messages:
    19,309
    Likes Received:
    23,820
    Location:
    Navarre, FL
    The only information I have regarding using chlorine as a disinfection method comes from here (Table 2): http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164
     
  16. Nstocks

    Nstocks Active Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2017
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    10
    From the same link:



    Do you read this as drying alone (suggest 24 hours) is enough to disinfect? The TTM states 3 days drying of equipment kills ich so 2 week should be plenty!
     
  17. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Partner Member 2018

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2014
    Messages:
    19,309
    Likes Received:
    23,820
    Location:
    Navarre, FL
    Yes, but if you are talking about draining your DT to kill ich, how do you ensure every drop of water is gone from inside your rocks and sandbed?
     
  18. Nstocks

    Nstocks Active Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2017
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    10
    The sand will be removed and dried out for much longer, if I even put it back.

    Removing every drop of water from the rock will come from using a shop vac to remove whatever drips out of the rocks onto the bottom of the tank and over the following 2 -3weeks a dehumidifier (which I already have) will be placed in the DT. The T5's could also aid evaporation, though this may just be a waste of energy since the dehumidifier will do the work.

    There's no way to really test how dry the centre of the rock is though, if that's what you mean.
     
  19. Maritimer

    Maritimer Moderator Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award CTARS Member Build Thread Contributor Partner Member 2018

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2015
    Messages:
    6,148
    Likes Received:
    10,309
    Location:
    SouthWestern Connecticut
    Three weeks with the dehumidifier, and you're halfway through the fallow period for velvet - six weeks. (Ich's fallow period of 76 days is longer, but not by all that much...)

    ~Bruce
     
    Humblefish likes this.
  20. Nstocks

    Nstocks Active Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2017
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    10
    3 week would be the maximum, it would be 2 weeks if I decide to remove the rock and heat to 40C. If it's just as effective, surely it's better than waiting 11 weeks!

    All this is of course dependent on it being ich and not velvet. If it's velvet the Anthias can't be treated with CP so copper treatment will take longer in which case I'll probably just let it go fallow.

    EDIT: Aquarium silicon has a temperature resistance from -40C to 200C, so I think 40C would be no problem.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
Loading...