Fallow periods: Going Fishless

[becks]

Looks like one of my clowns has ich or velvet....sigh, time for my second fallow period.

One is caught and in QT, now just gotta catch the others.

 

[fishybizzness]

Let me start by saying, things were going great with my tank until Irma and Maria. I ended up losing power for about 2 months. We have a whole house propane generator but it got a bit expensive to run so were only running it for about 6-8 hours a day. My stability went through the window. I ended up losing 1/2 my fish in the first few weeks. I kept everything going until we got power back in November but it was a struggle. Everything went ok for awhile. About 3 months ago I got a Caribbean blue tang and a surgeon fish. They got along great with my gobies and slippery dick wrasse. Everything was stable. About 1 month ago I got a sharpnose puffer. He got along great with everyone and was eating well by day 2. I don't have a quarantine but he looked good.... Until early last week. He broke out in spots. Within the week he along with my tang and surgeon were dead. The wrasse and gobies are looking like nothing happened. Could they be immune or is worse yet to come? I'm very discouraged and not sure what to do at this point.

 

[Big G]

Sorry to hear about the problems you've had to endure. I would advise to treat the remaining fish prophylactically starting with copper and then General Cure or Prazipro. Tank needs to go fallow for 76 days to starve out parasites. So you need a QT setup. The remaining fish are carriers at the least.

 

[PeterG]

Well I got all my fish back in the DT and the Pajama Cards & X-mas Wrasse are eating and adjusting well. Not so for my Firefish. One of them I have not seen in several days and the other one just stays on the bottom of the tank in a corner under the Magnetic Glass cleaner. He comes out when I move it but doesn’t go far and gets back beneath it as soon as I put it back in place.
I probably should have left the Firefish in the QT as they really did not look very healthy in the QT. If I saw fish like that in my LFS I would pass on them. They were always on the bottom hiding under the tray of sand I put in for the wrasse or hiding in the PVC pipe. I guess I figured that after 76 days in QT with Cupramine and then Prazi maybe they’d perk up back in the DT.

My question is should I attempt to catch this guy and QT him again? If so, with what medication. I don’t know what’s wrong with him. I don’t see anything externally obvious and I’m assuming after what he went thru he doesn’t have Ich or Velvet.

What do you guys think?

 

[Big G]

Sounds like the Firefish are hiding. Xmas Wrasses have been known to be quite aggressive and many would tell you, while there are exceptions, not to put them into a tank with "peaceful" fish.

 

[PeterG]

Sounds like the Firefish are hiding. Xmas Wrasses have been known to be quite aggressive and many would tell you, while there are exceptions, not to put them into a tank with "peaceful" fish.

That's possible as space was limited in the QT. But I put the Firefish back into the DT five days before the Wrasse and they were behaving the same way. Maybe they are still freaked out over their time in Gen-Pop in the QT.
I know they all got along in the DT before the Ich/Velvet/? incident. I never observed any aggression from this Wrasse or my Six-line. They seemed to get along got along with everyone in the tank. The Firefish used to hide at night but always be front & center during the day.
I have not seen the Firefish eating but I suppose he could be eating off the bottom with the CUC.
Would you just leave him where he is?

 

[ajhudson15]

Quick question on the fallow period. I have removed everything and am waiting for that period to end. My questions is, is there a way to speed that process up. Like can I increase temp lower salinity and go fallow and it make it quicker?

 

[Big G]

Quick question on the fallow period. I have removed everything and am waiting for that period to end. My questions is, is there a way to speed that process up. Like can I increase temp lower salinity and go fallow and it make it quicker?

Some have tried what you have suggested thinking it would increase the speed of the life cycle of possible parasites in the tank. The problem is no one is sure exactly how much it affects the parasite's life cycle. So much more data at regular salinity and temp and thus makes the 76 day time frame for a total fallow period more reliable. That being said, it's a hobby where people experiment all the time. Best of luck.

~ Gary

 

[Ferrell]

Excellent into humble. As always I learned a ton .

 

[PoeticInjustice]

Just finished reading the whole thread.
So here’s my question. I’m a week into my fallow period for ich and all my fish are in separate QT tanks. One of my tank’s Cupramine treatment (30 days) will end next week, but since my DT is fallow, they need to stay in QT without copper. Do I need to move them to a separate tank, clean the existing tank and dry it, to ensure that any encysting ich parasite will not be able to reinfect the fish? I’m thinking that there’s a chance that parasites in the encysting stage longer than 30 days have a chance of surviving the copper medication if they encysted before I started the cupramine treatment. I haven’t seen that scenario raised in this thread. What do you guys think?

 

[Brew12]

Just finished reading the whole thread.
So here’s my question. I’m a week into my fallow period for ich and all my fish are in separate QT tanks. One of my tank’s Cupramine treatment (30 days) will end next week, but since my DT is fallow, they need to stay in QT without copper. Do I need to move them to a separate tank, clean the existing tank and dry it, to ensure that any encysting ich parasite will not be able to reinfect the fish? I’m thinking that there’s a chance that parasites in the encysting stage longer than 30 days have a chance of surviving the copper medication if they encysted before I started the cupramine treatment. I haven’t seen that scenario raised in this thread. What do you guys think?

You should be fine to pull the copper out of the system. Even though we always talk about copper only impacting the free swimming form of the parasite, there is some evidence that shows copper will kill encysted parasites after 2 to 3 weeks of exposure. This is why removing copper after 30 days works. There is some risk that a more copper resistant strain of Ich may make it through but it is unlikely. But, for that reason, my preference is now to treat in copper for 10 days and transfer to a clean QT.

 

[PoeticInjustice]

You should be fine to pull the copper out of the system. Even though we always talk about copper only impacting the free swimming form of the parasite, there is some evidence that shows copper will kill encysted parasites after 2 to 3 weeks of exposure. This is why removing copper after 30 days works. There is some risk that a more copper resistant strain of Ich may make it through but it is unlikely. But, for that reason, my preference is now to treat in copper for 10 days and transfer to a clean QT.

Gotcha... Follow-up question, why 10 days and not seachem’s recommended 14 days?

 

[Brew12]

Gotcha... Follow-up question, why 10 days and not seachem’s recommended 14 days?

I haven't seen a study showing Cryptocaryon Irritans feeding on a fish for more than 6 or 7 days. The 10 day window is to ensure all of the feeding Ich leaves while protecting the fish from any new parasites with a safety margin of 3 to 4 days.

A better question may be why they recommend 14 days. In my opinion it is longer than needed if you are going to transfer the fish and too short if you plan on removing the copper with the fish still in the system.

 

[PoeticInjustice]

^ Makes sense. Thanks Brew!

 

[Eggpaul]

In the fallow period, if there is 1 disease resistant fish in the tank how does the ICH survive if it can't attach and multiply?

 

[VFX_Reef_Peacekeeper]

I haven't seen a study showing Cryptocaryon Irritans feeding on a fish for more than 6 or 7 days. The 10 day window is to ensure all of the feeding Ich leaves while protecting the fish from any new parasites with a safety margin of 3 to 4 days.

A better question may be why they recommend 14 days. In my opinion it is longer than needed if you are going to transfer the fish and too short if you plan on removing the copper with the fish still in the system.

This is not correct. The free swimming stage of ich is dead in 6 hours without finding a host. It will stay on a fish for 8 days. The cyst can last up to 28 days in your substraight.

 

[Nopy117]

@Humblefish Does the fallow timer for velvet include the 15 days that the free swimming stage can remain infective? or should the real timer actually be 42+15 days, making the full fallow 62 days long?

The article linked in the velvet page does state this:
"After 48 to 96 hours (although it can take up to 20+ days)"
Which leads me to think its really 20+15 days. But of course the "+" is pretty vague ;Meh

 

[Humblefish]

@Humblefish Does the fallow timer for velvet include the 15 days that the free swimming stage can remain infective? or should the real timer actually be 42+15 days, making the full fallow 62 days long?

The 45 day fallow period for velvet takes into account the possibility that free swimmers were present/active for 15 days.

 

[Nopy117]

The 45 day fallow period for velvet takes into account the possibility that free swimmers were present/active for 15 days.

Great! Thank you.

 

[Nopy117]

I also noticed, in this post it states 6 weeks, which is only 42 days instead of 45, is this 3 day extension crucial?
Also not to be a bother, but do you have a source for the 45 days? I've only been able to find the 20 day maximum in terms of cyst release, did you just add 10 days to that number so we can have a more effective fallow timer? Technically wouldn't it be 20+15 instead of 30+15?