Fallow periods: Going Fishless

Discussion in 'Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis' started by Humblefish, Jan 31, 2015.

  1. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    ^^ I agree with this. Ghost feed pellets/flake every few days and if you see your nitrates rapidly dropping, start target feeding your corals/inverts frozen food. The problem with dosing pure ammonia is if you overdose it can kill. :eek:
     
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  2. ltrace

    ltrace Well-Known Member

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    If going fallow, I take out all fish correct? What about snails, crabs, shrimps, urchin, anemone and corals? If they all stay in the tank do I continue to feed fish food so they will have something to eat.
     
  3. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    Yes

    You can toss in some flake or pellets every few days, and target feed your corals/inverts frozen goodies. Maybe some nori for the snails if algae growth tapers off. If you notice your nitrates being lowered to undesirable levels, increase frequency of feedings.
     
  4. ltrace

    ltrace Well-Known Member

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    In going fallow, I have 10 small fish. The biggest is( 3-1"/2)-(4") long. Can I put them all in a 45gal bow front tank to QT them? 2 PJ cardinal, 1 banggai, 2 clowns, chromis, midas blenny, royal gramma, yellow tang, kole tang.
     
  5. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    Yes, but get yourself a large HOB filter (ex. Aquaclear 70 or Bio-wheel equivalent) and a bottle of nitrifying bacteria (ex. Bio-Spira, Seachem Stability or Dr Tim's Nitrifying Bacteria) for the long haul.
     
  6. tom39

    tom39 Well-Known Member

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    So reading through this thread I am curious if one or more or marine diseases are capable of being introduced by means of corals, frag plugs or rock rubble? From what I've read it seems likely. If so, what is the recommendation for corals before being introduced into a DT to avoid marine diseases? Will a coral dip in something like Bayer be sufficient to rid the piece of infection?
     
  7. melypr1985

    melypr1985 totally addicted Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Expert Contributor Article Contributor

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    Yes, it's very likely. The best thing you can do is to QT all inverts and corals for 76 days in a fishless tank. It doesn't have to be a pricey set up. Mine is a little more than it needs to be - 20 gallon JBJ fragtank AIO with an AI Prime and ATO. It's easy to maintain and I didn't have to but a lot of stuff for it. Dips won't do anything for ick or velvet.
     
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  8. Maritimer

    Maritimer Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader CTARS Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Since you mentioned it, this is something that's been skittering around in my brain . . .

    30 days of copper works. It's worked for as long as I can remember, since aquarists dosed copper by dropping a penny or two in their filters. Why is it, though, that a tomont can't stay encysted in QT for 32 - 72 days and infect the fish again during a fallow period? Why wouldn't an encysted tomont last just as long in QT as it does in the fallow display?

    I won't say it's one of the things that keep me awake at night, but it's one of the things that whisper in my ear . . .

    ~Bruce
     
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  9. melypr1985

    melypr1985 totally addicted Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Expert Contributor Article Contributor

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    We've had this question posed before and the answer is that it can. It can and does on occasion which is an important reason for there to be an observation period after treating ich. The observation period is forced when you have to let the display go fallow which makes it easier. With new fish an observation period is recommended as well, but is more difficult for the hobbyist who (like all of us) want to see that fish in the display asap.
     
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  10. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    ^^ Just to add to what Meredith said, copper has only been proven to kill the free swimming theront stage. So, if theronts were to take longer than 30 days to excyst from a tomont then 30 days of copper treatment would fail. :(

    Now there is some evidence that copper also kills the protomont (the phase just before it encysts into a tomont.) When a trophont drops off a fish, it becomes a protomont. During this phase, it loses its cilia, flattens its surfaces, and crawls around for anywhere from 2-18 hours. It then stops, attaches to a surface, and encysts, thus becoming a tomont. The cyst hardens in 8-12 hours. Once the cyst forms, it now has greater protection from hypo, copper and other chemical treatments.

    But for the above to ever be proven, extensive research would need to be done.
     
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  11. ltrace

    ltrace Well-Known Member

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    I'm trying to wrap my mind around everything that was stated. So would it be safe to say QT'ing everything, whether fish or coral, 76 days to be rather than the normal 30days for QT? Trying to get an understanding of the different stages of disease so that I can develop a protocol before adding anything to the DT. Whether adding fish, coral, CUC or rock everything it seems to me, needs to looked at before adding to DT.
     
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  12. Brew12

    Brew12 Electrical Gru R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    Most inverts and corals and rocks should go in QT for 76 days. The exception is if you know they come from a system that doesn't share water with fish.
    Anemone's don't need to go into a QT since they have no hard surfaces.
    Shrimp and certain crabs only need to be in a QT until they molt.

    There is a wide range of options on how to QT fish, but I personally like doing 3 days of observation with a FW dip during that time. Follow that with 30 days in copper, followed by 2 week observation.
     
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  13. tom39

    tom39 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for responding. Though now I feel that I have been playing Russian Roulette for the last 4yrs dipping and gluing rock and plugs without giving it any thought.
     
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  14. melypr1985

    melypr1985 totally addicted Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Expert Contributor Article Contributor

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    It's alright. We all learn and most of us have done the same thing and had to learn the hard way. Keep in mind, that if you start QT'ing fish and corals/inverts now, that your new fish might show up with ick or flukes simply because it's already in the system and your current fish have been able to live with it. Not saying it will happen, just that it might and the reason why. Hopefully it doesn't! :)
     
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  15. ltrace

    ltrace Well-Known Member

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    If using CP in the QT and going fallow in the DT, would CP stay in the QT the 76days or 30days?
     
  16. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    30 days
     
  17. DerekC

    DerekC New Member

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    Would raising the temp on the DT speed up the life cycle? High enough but not kill the invertebrates. What temp?
    If I can't (or prefer not to) wait for 76 days (as I am not sure I have ich or velvet or both) and don't want to do 30% WC with the QT every 2-3 days, would taking apart the DT, bleaching everything to kill everything lives be an easier solution? I can take my time to do that since I have 30 days (waiting for the fish to finish the cupramine treatment in QT). Oh, I will have to take out the corals and the invertebrates and keep them in another tank (no treatment) for 30 days. Will they still carry the diseases after 30 days that I will eventually put back into the DT?

    I know it is mean but with all these efforts, time and money to save the fish, I would rather donate them (fish and invertebrates) back to the LFS (and let you handle the QTing, haha) and spend a weekend or week to bleach everything and start the DT brand new with new fish and invertebrates... Comments?

    (Sorry if any of these has been covered. I only skimmed thru all 4 pages really quickly.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  18. DerekC

    DerekC New Member

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    Oh, still have to QT new fish before putting into the restarted DT..... Oh man.
     
  19. melypr1985

    melypr1985 totally addicted Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Expert Contributor Article Contributor

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    Hi! Welcome to R2R! Let's start at the top. First off, without QT you will probably be in this situation again. Taking everything down and bleaching it all and letting everything dry out completely would work, but would take forever to start over and cycle the tank again. All the inverts and corals would still need to go 76 days fallow before being added back to the tank. Raising the temp isn't guaranteed to speed up the life cycle and there is no proven data to give us a time line via tank temp. It's not reliable so you would still need to leave the tank fallow. In my opinion and experience, it's much easier to just leave the fish out of the tank for the 76 days and treat them in a QT. It's a bit of a pain to get the fish out, but other than that it's not that difficult to do. I hope that helps.
     
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  20. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    There is no conclusive evidence that warmer water temp speeds up the parasite's lifecycle.

    Bleaching means having to recycle the tank, losing all your microfauna, months of nuisance algae growth after you restart the tank, etc. Not worth it IMO. Also, corals/inverts are capable of hosting the tomont stage (same as your rocks/sand), so those need to be left fallow for 76 days as well.

    If I may be blunt, instead of looking for the easy way out, I think you'll learn useful lessons from treating all your fish and going fallow in the DT. It will make you a better reefer.
     
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