Feeding and Phosphates -- dilemma

[McGene]

I've been battling cyanobacteria off and on. I treated my JBJ45 with Chemiclean a few weeks ago and it worked fine.
Now, the stuff is back. I don't think I'm a heavy-handed feeder -- and I try to mix between frozen mysis, brine, and flake food. Clearly, I'm doing something wrong!!!!
I've cut back on the intensity of my lighting -- doing 5 gallon water changes weekly -- running carbon (just added a bag of ChemiPure Elite and ordered some Purigen today). I don't know if any of this will work.
Oh, yeah, also added some snails, sea cucumber, etc. I've started to vacuum the sand and scrub the rocks!
I have NOT added an aggressive sand sifter -- I have a Rainford Goby -- cute as he can be but very dainty in his demeanor.
Any further recommendations are welcome. I read a post recently that suggested the non-use of flake food. I'm feed occasionally Cobalt (Mysis Spirulina). The analysis on the back states Phosphorus MIN 1%
Thanks!

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

It’s not likely nutrients as you think of them.

Are you carbon dosing ? Nopox ?
What all are you feeding ?

I would turn the lights back up. Keep stabilized. Don’t change too many parameters at once.

 

[Fudsey]

Do you have a phosphate test? I would recommend the Hanna Phosphorus ULR to find out what your phosphates are. I wouldn't doubt that your NO3 might be low as well. Usually Cyano comes from low NO3 and PO4. You need to find out these parameters before you can figure out how to battle them.

@Brew12 is really good at helping to figure out cyano battles :-)

 

[Brew12]

It’s not likely nutrients as you think of them.

+1 on this. We are trying to grow things in our tank. We need to feed our tank what the inhabitants need to be happy and healthy. Cyanobacteria is much more common in tanks where we try to remove nutrients than in tanks where too many are added.

Every tank is going to have cyanobacteria in it. The goal is to try and get other life to thrive in our systems and out compete the cyanobacteria. In newer systems, there isn't much diversity so they are more susceptible to issues like this.

The problem with products like Chemiclean is that they not only hurt the cyanobacteria, but they also wipe out the things that keep the cyanobacteria in check. It is incredibly unusual for someone to use chemiclean and not have cyanobacteria issues develop again. If you have a reefer who lives near you that has a relatively pest free tank ask if you can get a bag of sump sludge from them. Or a good ball of macroalgae. Even a handful of sand would help. You can add pods, live phytoplankton and rotifers if you can get them reasonably.

Otherwise, try and keep your NO3 above 5ppm and break up the mats that form regularly. Every day if needed. I like to use a small aquarium pump like a cobalt MJ1200 to power wash the rocks and an acrylic rod to stir the sand.

 

[McGene]

Oh boy, I'm a bit confused. ;)
I thought my goal was to keep nitrates and phosphates as low as possible.
I did purchase the Hanna ULR Phosphorus test kit. I'll check it and post the results here shortly.
BTW, thanks very much for the education -- I thought I knew "something" about this hobby -- guess I was wrong! With your help -- maybe I can have a tank to be proud of.
-gene

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

One thing we haven’t touched on, how old is the tank ?
You’ve got good rodi?

Foods with an organic carbon source (usually vitamin c as a preservative ) will do that too. LRS I love but gives me the cyano.

A heavy handed feeder can do it too as the food is wasted and becomes ammonia.

IME, I’ve never personally seen a correlation with high or low nutrients and Cyano.
By that measure I should have gotten cyano when I tried to starve out bryopsis. Shriveled my zoas and lightened my acros But no no cyano.

 

[Brew12]

I thought my goal was to keep nitrates and phosphates as low as possible.

I think this concept has come and gone. Some people still run systems that way, but it is less common than it used to be. People who are successful with it tend to feed very heavy but then strip the nutrients back out quickly. Too much work and worry for me to enjoy.

I think you should give this a read.
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/tank-parameters-of-some-masters.263/

 

[McGene]

Thanks for the link, Brew12. Will read ASAP.
Results
PO4 = .021 (Hanna Phosphorus ULR)
Nitrates = 0 (API kit)
ALK = 7.7 (Hanna)

 

[McGene]

Sorry, failed to answer the question about the age of my tank: It's fairly new -- started in July 2018
Since my tank is small (JBJ45) I don't have a sump -- thus a bit limited in space for added equipment.
I am running a CAD lights Elite II skimmer as well as a UV sterilizer. I have carbon in the overflow chambers along with a bag of MATRIX.
I can post a pic later if that would help (I may be a tad embarrassed by the look - but I really hope with help from you guys we can make it praise-worthy)

 

[phlibbyreefer]

Thanks for the link, Brew12. Will read ASAP.
Results
PO4 = .021 (Hanna Phosphorus ULR)
Nitrates = 0 (API kit)
ALK = 7.7 (Hanna)

Maybe need to slightly dose some nitrate to keep things in balance so system to keep the phosphate in check itself.

 

[acrum222]

Maybe need to slightly dose some nitrate to keep things in balance so system to keep the phosphate in check itself.

This is how I beat mine. Did the same thing, was keeping nutrients extremely low. Got cyano. Started to dose nitrates. Within a week they were gone.

 

[Todvod]

One thing we haven’t touched on, how old is the tank ?
You’ve got good rodi?

Foods with an organic carbon source (usually vitamin c as a preservative ) will do that too. LRS I love but gives me the cyano.

A heavy handed feeder can do it too as the food is wasted and becomes ammonia.

IME, I’ve never personally seen a correlation with high or low nutrients and Cyano.
By that measure I should have gotten cyano when I tried to starve out bryopsis. Shriveled my zoas and lightened my acros But no no cyano.

This is good to know @saltyfilmworks. I feed LRS twice a day and have been dealing with cyano. My tank is new too(5 months) so that has something to do with it as well. I think I will start to mix some other foods in. Any recommendations? I have 2 clowns and a Midas blenny right now, and a long nose hawkfish and McCoskers wrasse in QT to be added soon.

 

[Nepenthes88]

Maybe need to slightly dose some nitrate to keep things in balance so system to keep the phosphate in check itself.

I also agree with this. I had a cyano outbreak after using Vibrant. At that time, my nitrate/phosphate situation was very similar to yours (undetectable nitrate with somewhat elevated phosphate). I started dosing nitrate (aiming for 5 ppm) and did weekly 20% water changes which included some sand vacuuming in low flow/detritus build up areas.

It took maybe 2 months but I beat the cyano without use of Chemiclean.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

This is good to know @saltyfilmworks. I feed LRS twice a day and have been dealing with cyano. My tank is new too(5 months) so that has something to do with it as well. I think I will start to mix some other foods in. Any recommendations? I have 2 clowns and a Midas blenny right now, and a long nose hawkfish and McCoskers wrasse in QT to be added soon.

It doesn’t happen in all tanks. And LRS is about the best you can get. But you still do need avoid Over feeding, LRS can be chunky so there could be leftovers. Leftovers rot make ammoina , and no3.
Add a small organic carbon source and you could be feeding the cyano pretty good.
Esp in a newer tank where the bio filter isn’t quite up to speed. For the no3 the ammonia and the C.

It’s odd to explain , but there’s really is a distinct difference in how a 6 mo old tank “eats” and a one or two year one old does.

 

[McGene]

So, what is the proper approach to dosing nitrates? I can see now that some type of dosing equipment might be needed. To dose 2-part and nitrates, and who knows what else can be a pain to keep up with :)

 

[Zeal]

I run chemipure, matrix, and carbon. Always have since day one, 5g water change every Sunday have never missed a day and I have yet to have any type of algae issue other then the stuff on the glass.

And I’m a heavy feeder but I only feed once a day... not sure if it’s just the fact Im on a schedule or that I’ve been doing it since day 1

 

[McGene]

Thanks Zeal.
I haven't been quite as diligent as you but it's nice to know it can be done.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I've been battling cyanobacteria off and on. I treated my JBJ45 with Chemiclean a few weeks ago and it worked fine.
Now, the stuff is back. I don't think I'm a heavy-handed feeder -- and I try to mix between frozen mysis, brine, and flake food. Clearly, I'm doing something wrong!!!!
I've cut back on the intensity of my lighting -- doing 5 gallon water changes weekly -- running carbon (just added a bag of ChemiPure Elite and ordered some Purigen today). I don't know if any of this will work.
Oh, yeah, also added some snails, sea cucumber, etc. I've started to vacuum the sand and scrub the rocks!
I have NOT added an aggressive sand sifter -- I have a Rainford Goby -- cute as he can be but very dainty in his demeanor.
Any further recommendations are welcome. I read a post recently that suggested the non-use of flake food. I'm feed occasionally Cobalt (Mysis Spirulina). The analysis on the back states Phosphorus MIN 1%
Thanks!

What does Chemiclean contain? What exactly did you add to the aquarium? Something that may destroy the existing installed balance? How you determined it are cyano's? Most cyano's in an aquarium grow in microbial mats, a mix of many organisms. In most cases cyano growth is triggered by an unbalance. When most competitors have it difficult cynao's will be the first to recover taking the place of those who have it more difficult to recover. Good flake food contains what is needed and the content is known. Good flake food is 100% of marine origin.
Purigen® claims it controls ammonia, nitrites and nitrates by removing nitrogenous organic wast?! As most ammonia is released directly into the water column this claim gives me not much confidence about the abilities of this product? If it is true it removes nitrogenous organic waste it may replace a skimmer and GAC?! But will not control ammonia, nitrites, nitrates!?

Why do you think an increased and balanced nutrient content promotes cyano growth?

An article of German origin by Bernd K. which may explain it all: http://ilovereefing.de/cyano-bakterien-bekampfen-gastbeitrag/?lang=en

 

[John Hughes]

Poor flow will promote cyno too.

 

[Waboss]

I had an ongoing cyano problem for weeks, or maybe months. Tried Chemiclean and all that jazz....it killed it, but it came right back. My problem was my nitrates/phosphates were out of balance. I had some phosphates (kinda of high, if I remember right) and zero nitrates. I ended up taking my biopellet reactor offline, stopped dosing bacteria (for the biopellets) and just started feeding heavier. Within a week or so, all my cyano was gone and it's never come back.

All I run for filtration now is a skimmer and UV. Oh, and I through a small bag of chemipure blue in the sump every 3-4 months.