Feeling a tingle

[MattSG]

Today when I went to feed the fish, I felt a tingle from the water. I am guessing something low voltage shorting out? I unplugged everything in contact with the water one at a time and did not notice any change. This included: heater, hob fuge pump, both external return pumps, external skimmer pump, ATO and turned the wave maker off. As I am typing this distress call, it dawned on me that I did not unplug the wave maker. So I ran downstairs, unplugged the wave maker and eureka!!! No more tingle. One of the power heads has been in service for a bunch of years, the other just a few months. Just the fact of typing out this SOS helped me figure out the issue so R2R saved another member! Time to do some shopping for a new power head and maybe another heater to have a spare handy.

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

Are you able to measure any stray voltage with a multimeter?

 

[MattSG]

I have a multimeter but not sure how to use it in the aquarium. Just stick the test leads in the water? Since I unplugged the one Koralia circulation pump, there is no tingling if you put your finger in the water. I just checked again and it's been 2hours.

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

You would test the water with one probe and run the other to ground to see if there is residual voltage. However, if you've turned off that pump and the shock is gone, it sounds like you found it.

 

[jsker]

@Brew12 is good with kind of stuff

 

[Brew12]

Today when I went to feed the fish, I felt a tingle from the water. I am guessing something low voltage shorting out? I unplugged everything in contact with the water one at a time and did not notice any change. This included: heater, hob fuge pump, both external return pumps, external skimmer pump, ATO and turned the wave maker off. As I am typing this distress call, it dawned on me that I did not unplug the wave maker. So I ran downstairs, unplugged the wave maker and eureka!!! No more tingle. One of the power heads has been in service for a bunch of years, the other just a few months. Just the fact of typing out this SOS helped me figure out the issue so R2R saved another member! Time to do some shopping for a new power head and maybe another heater to have a spare handy.

I'm glad you found the problem!

I think you should give serious thought to purchasing a ground probe. For safety reasons nothing can beat it when used with a GFCI device. Even if you don't want to use it full time, the two in combination make a great trouble shooting tool.
I recommend plugging the power strip you use to power your aquarium devices into something like this.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Defiant-Plug-In-GFCI-Adapter-3-Wire-Grounding-30339036/203741464

Even if you chose not to do it full time, they are very useful for determining if you have a failed device. Install a ground probe into your system https://www.amazon.com/RV2735-Rid-V...8&qid=1491704243&sr=8-2&keywords=ground+probe and then you can plug your devices into a gfci one at a time. If it trips the GFCI, you know it is faulty.

 

[MattSG]

Thank will look to add to my shopping list. Also will look at the circulating pumps with the motors outside the tank and work magnetically??? Thru the glass. They are a bit pricier from memory but probably a good upgrade.

 

[riguy314]

Hello - everyone. As it turns out, I too am having the same issue. voltage/current in the tank. Some quick background
on the tank. It is a Red Sea Reefer 425XL. it was an upgrade tank. all inhabitants including Live rock was transferred to the new tank. we did use new sand. all the equipment in the tank is brand new other than the lights and the koralia power head. Return pump - Echotech M1, skimmer - Bubble magus Curve 9 (i believe), heater is a Finnex 500 watt, one powerhead Hydor Koralia and AI lights over the tank using the goose arms they have. all items are plugged into a Monster surge protector and i do not use a grounding probe. I really want to get rid of the little shock.
After much reading, I went decided to try and find the source. I unplugged each item one by one and at the end, after everything was unplugged, it was still there. is there a certain amount of time that you need to leave each item unplugged before moving on the unplugging the next item?? I am at a loss as to what to do now short of having to buy all new equipment to replace the new equipment. any additional suggestions would be great. thanks!

 

[Brew12]

Hello - everyone. As it turns out, I too am having the same issue. voltage/current in the tank. Some quick background
on the tank. It is a Red Sea Reefer 425XL. it was an upgrade tank. all inhabitants including Live rock was transferred to the new tank. we did use new sand. all the equipment in the tank is brand new other than the lights and the koralia power head. Return pump - Echotech M1, skimmer - Bubble magus Curve 9 (i believe), heater is a Finnex 500 watt, one powerhead Hydor Koralia and AI lights over the tank using the goose arms they have. all items are plugged into a Monster surge protector and i do not use a grounding probe. I really want to get rid of the little shock.
After much reading, I went decided to try and find the source. I unplugged each item one by one and at the end, after everything was unplugged, it was still there. is there a certain amount of time that you need to leave each item unplugged before moving on the unplugging the next item?? I am at a loss as to what to do now short of having to buy all new equipment to replace the new equipment. any additional suggestions would be great. thanks!

If you look at my post above in this thread I recommend a portable GFCI unit to use for testing. I'm not sure why you wouldn't want a ground probe full time, but getting one would at least allow you to trouble shoot. If you get the portable GFCI and a ground probe, you can plug in your equipment into the portable GFCI one at a time and see which one trips the GFCI. That will be the component you need to replace.

 

[riguy314]

If you look at my post above in this thread I recommend a portable GFCI unit to use for testing. I'm not sure why you wouldn't want a ground probe full time, but getting one would at least allow you to trouble shoot. If you get the portable GFCI and a ground probe, you can plug in your equipment into the portable GFCI one at a time and see which one trips the GFCI. That will be the component you need to replace.

I read your post and purchased both units to start testing. although I am not an electrician, I did check the outlet and it turns out that the outlet itself is not grounded. the ground wire is just inside the outlet box not attached to the outlet. the current outlet does not have a ground screw so I also purchased the new GFCI outlet which I will install in the morning and see if that helps too.

 

[Brew12]

I read your post and purchased both units to start testing. although I am not an electrician, I did check the outlet and it turns out that the outlet itself is not grounded. the ground wire is just inside the outlet box not attached to the outlet. the current outlet does not have a ground screw so I also purchased the new GFCI outlet which I will install in the morning and see if that helps too.

I'm glad you caught that. Very dangerous to think you have a ground on your outlet but for it not to be connected.

 

[riguy314]

I'm glad you caught that. Very dangerous to think you have a ground on your outlet but for it not to be connected.

me too. after installing the new GFI plug and having the outlet grounded properly, the problem has been solved. no more shock! note to self - regardless, check all outlets going forward just to be sure. thank you to everyone who responded.

 

[Rotorocious]

I had this exact same issue. occasionally I'll feel a little tingle but mostly whenever i have a cut or something on my hands. Pretty sure its my wavemaker

 

[Torqued]

So let me know your thoughts on this guys:

Hook everything but lights into NON-GFCI protected outlets. Use a grounding probe in the tank hooked to a GFCI Powerstrip. Assuming there is a short, the probe should trip the GFCI and my lights will no longer function. There is probably a way to make my Apex discover this trip as well and create an alert but need to think more on how to do it . This will tell me there is a problem WITHOUT shutting down my tank's life support pumps etc. So many reefers refuse to use GFCI because it has caused pumps to stop and tanks have died as a result. This option seems like a very good middle ground while still providing safety for you and your tank.

 

[Brew12]

So let me know your thoughts on this guys:

Hook everything but lights into NON-GFCI protected outlets. Use a grounding probe in the tank hooked to a GFCI Powerstrip. Assuming there is a short, the probe should trip the GFCI and my lights will no longer function. There is probably a way to make my Apex discover this trip as well and create an alert but need to think more on how to do it . This will tell me there is a problem WITHOUT shutting down my tank's life support pumps etc. So many reefers refuse to use GFCI because it has caused pumps to stop and tanks have died as a result. This option seems like a very good middle ground while still providing safety for you and your tank.

Unfortunately, it will not work. The location of the ground probe has no impact on which breaker trips. The faulted equipment will only trip the GFCI it is plugged into.

What I do is run multiple GFCI's. I have 2 heaters for redundancy, each is plugged into its own Apex controlled GFCI. My skimmer gets its own GFCI, and my return pump shares a GFCI with one powerhead. I run 2 MP40's which aren't in the tank so I do not have those on GFCI's. If I used submerged motor powerhead, I would run them off of separate GFCI's so that if one tripped, the other would operate.

 

[Torqued]

Unfortunately, it will not work. The location of the ground probe has no impact on which breaker trips. The faulted equipment will only trip the GFCI it is plugged into.

What I do is run multiple GFCI's. I have 2 heaters for redundancy, each is plugged into its own Apex controlled GFCI. My skimmer gets its own GFCI, and my return pump shares a GFCI with one powerhead. I run 2 MP40's which aren't in the tank so I do not have those on GFCI's. If I used submerged motor powerhead, I would run them off of separate GFCI's so that if one tripped, the other would operate.

Are you sure about that? I thought that if any additional power was returned to ground it would trip the GFCI, I dont think it matters if its more or less than the originating power? Doesnt the GFCI just compare in/out current and if they are different it trips.

This is the description on how they work:
"With the exception of small amounts of leakage, the current returning to the power supply in a typical 2-wire circuit will be equal to the current leaving the power supply. If the difference between the current leaving and returning through the current transformer of the GFCI exceeds 5mA, the solid-state circuitry opens the switching contacts and de-energizes the circuit."

Where i am unsure is if in this case the imbalance would be caused by ADDED current returning to the circuit rather than less, which is commonly the case when there is a short in the circuit indicating a possible shock situation.

 

[Brew12]

Are you sure about that? I thought that if any additional power was returned to ground it would trip the GFCI, I dont think it matters if its more or less than the originating power? Doesnt the GFCI just compare in/out current and if they are different it trips.

This is the description on how they work:
"With the exception of small amounts of leakage, the current returning to the power supply in a typical 2-wire circuit will be equal to the current leaving the power supply. If the difference between the current leaving and returning through the current transformer of the GFCI exceeds 5mA, the solid-state circuitry opens the switching contacts and de-energizes the circuit."

Where i am unsure is if in this case the imbalance would be caused by ADDED current returning to the circuit rather than less, which is commonly the case when there is a short in the circuit indicating a possible shock situation.

Yes, I am sure about this.

A GFCI does not monitor ground current. In fact, a GFCI will still work in an older home that doesn't have ground installed to the outlets. As the description states, it uses a typical 2-wire circuit which we call "hot" and "neutral". Since the added current in your idea would go through the ground connection it would not change the current at either the hot and neutral connections, so the GFCI will not trip. That is why 1 ground probe will protect the entire tank. The location that the ground probe is plugged in does not matter and won't impact any GFCI's on the system.

 

[Torqued]

Yes, I am sure about this.

A GFCI does not monitor ground current. In fact, a GFCI will still work in an older home that doesn't have ground installed to the outlets. As the description states, it uses a typical 2-wire circuit which we call "hot" and "neutral". Since the added current in your idea would go through the ground connection it would not change the current at either the hot and neutral connections, so the GFCI will not trip. That is why 1 ground probe will protect the entire tank. The location that the ground probe is plugged in does not matter and won't impact any GFCI's on the system.

*&#! you are right and that makes sense. The grounding probe causes the loss of current which is detected, but its not possible to introduce that power into the circuit to create an imbalance w/out actually putting current back through the probe to the tank lol. Obviously that wont work

 

[Brew12]

*&#! you are right and that makes sense. The grounding probe causes the loss of current which is detected, but its not possible to introduce that power into the circuit to create an imbalance w/out actually putting current back through the probe to the tank lol. Obviously that wont work

I highly recommend running a ground probe and having all of your submerged electrical devices on separate GFCI's. Many different ways to do this. Even if you don't want it for your personal protection the combination of the other two does have other benefits. If you have a pump or heater fail and cause a voltage leak, it is highly likely that you will have copper exposed to your seawater. The electrical current in the area of the fault will speed up the rate at which this copper leaches into your system. If the fault is bad enough to generate heat, it can melt plastics and leach other toxins into your system. The combo of GFCI/ground probe will take this fault off line immediately and potentially save your system.