First ICP test... Mostly ok?

[rishma]

Also, stop doing icp tests and do a real lab test, modern reef has those. They are more expensive but way more acurate.

A real lab test? What type of test method are you advocating for? I realize not all ICP are created equal but ICP-MS from say Oceamo is far more accurate than I really need.

 

[js-3Design]

A real lab test? What type of test method are you advocating for? I realize not all ICP are created equal but ICP-MS from say Oceamo is far more accurate than I really need.

Ice tests are inaccurate with salinity for example. They don't measure it but calculate it. But there's a lot of stuff in water they don't test for, therefore your salinity on a icp is always off.
Also accuracy on traces measured ppb on a icp is debatable.

I advocate for tests that back up icp tests with other methods of testing.

 

[rishma]

Ice tests are inaccurate with salinity for example. They don't measure it but calculate it. But there's a lot of stuff in water they don't test for, therefore your salinity on a icp is always off.
Also accuracy on traces measured ppb on a icp is debatable.

I advocate for tests that back up icp tests with other methods of testing.

Ok but what test method?

FWIW, I measure salinity very precisely and it agreed with my last ICP-MS. But I don’t use ICP for salinity measurement anyway.

 

[slingfox]

Ice tests are inaccurate with salinity for example. They don't measure it but calculate it. But there's a lot of stuff in water they don't test for, therefore your salinity on a icp is always off.
Also accuracy on traces measured ppb on a icp is debatable.

I advocate for tests that test every element separate. Not an icp test.

I don’t think you know what you are talking about. Modern Reef also uses ICP machines as part of its testing service!

What provider has a hardware stack which tests “every element separate[ly]” and what are those machines? You mention Modern Reef—what machines do the have that someone like Oceamo does not?

Even if salinity is calculated rather than measured directly doesn’t mean the metric is wrong. For example, no scientist has taken a ruler and measured the distance from earth to then sun directly. That distance has been calculated. I don’t see any reason to doubt the figure scientists have come up with via such “calculations”.

The ICP-OES and ICP-MS test performed by API both both “real lab” tests. One is more sensitive than the other but doesn’t mean the ICP-OES has no value. I have used four different ICP test providers and one thing that was relatively consistent was salinity. I don’t believe there is much reason to doubt that measure from ICP test providers. I also have the ICP-MS tests from Modern Reef in shipment so I will use them soon too.

I see absolutely no reason to criticize use of ATI’s basic ICP service. Most in the hobby are doing no ICP testing whatsoever!

 

[js-3Design]

I don’t think you know what you are talking about. Modern Reef also uses ICP machines as part of its testing service!

What provider has a hardware stack which tests “every element separate[ly]” and what are those machines? You mention Modern Reef—what machines do the have that someone like Oceamo does not?

The ICP-OES and ICP-MS test performed by API both both “real lab” tests. One is more sensitive than the other but doesn’t mean the ICP-OES has no value. I have used four different ICP test providers and one thing that was relatively consistent was salinity. I don’t believe there is much reason to doubt that measure from ICP test providers. I also have the ICP-MS tests from Modern Reef in shipment so I will use them soon too.

I see absolutely no reason to criticize use of ATI’s basic ICP service. Most in the hobby are doing no ICP testing whatsoever!

Let's say we have different experiences with a lot of icp tests:)
I'm not saying modern reef doesn't also use icp but at least they admit that an accurate measurement asks for more than only icp testing. (Of course that doesn't count for their icp only tests)

Well I can criticize ATI icp service and that is that non of OP trace elements are detectable but they call it normal?
Maybe I'm just reading the results wrong...

And not doing an icp test at all, yeah more people should do testing .,. then the 'what is wrong with my corals' questions etc will get far less haha.

 

[slingfox]

Let's say we have different experiences with a lot of icp tests:)
I'm not saying modern reef doesn't also use icp but at least they admit that an accurate measurement asks for more than only icp testing. (Of course that doesn't count for their icp only tests)

Well I can criticize ATI icp service and that is that non of OP trace elements are detectable but they call it normal?
Maybe I'm just reading the results wrong...

And not doing an icp test at all, yeah more people should do testing .,. then the 'what is wrong with my corals' questions etc will get far less haha.

My point is the OP used a service that definitely does “real lab tests”. They paid for the ICP-OES which I agree does not measure many traces well or at all. ATI also has an ICP-MS service which can measure a wide range traces as well. Modern Reef also has several different tests that can be performed based on what service you pay for.

 

[js-3Design]

My point is the OP used a service that definitely does “real lab tests”. They paid for the ICP-OES which I agree does not measure many traces well or at all. ATI also has an ICP-MS service which can measure a wide range traces as well. Modern Reef also has several different tests that can be performed based on what service you pay for.

Hmm i did not know about the different kinds of icp testing. That's probably where I went wrong in the past. I'll look into that. Thank you:)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Ice tests are inaccurate with salinity for example. They don't measure it but calculate it. But there's a lot of stuff in water they don't test for, therefore your salinity on a icp is always off.
Also accuracy on traces measured ppb on a icp is debatable.

I advocate for tests that back up icp tests with other methods of testing.

Icp companies likely do not measure salinity by icp itself these days. Oceamo certainly does not. Oceamo runs lots of tests that are not icp, giving things like salinity and nitrate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Here’s what Oceamo does that is not by icp, but reported along with their icp-ms:

https://en.oceamo.com/analysen/
With our IC (including conductivity and UV detection), we can also reliably measure fluoride, nitrate and nitrite in extremely low concentrations. Salinity is measured with a conductivity probe and alkalinity (KH) is determined titrimetrically. In addition, we measure phosphate using a sensitive photometric method, which means that this important parameter is determined precisely.

 

[SaltySuz]

Grateful for everyone's input and all the comments! I ordered a Tunze Nano ATO.

Regarding the trace elements… do all supplements require daily dosing? Like AFR and Tropic Marin A & K? I use a high-quality salt and try to keep things in my tank and the maintenance as simple as possible. At least for a reef tank

 

[rishma]

Grateful for everyone's input and all the comments! I ordered a Tunze Nano ATO.

Regarding the trace elements… do all supplements require daily dosing? Like AFR and Tropic Marin A & K? I use a high-quality salt and try to keep things in my tank and the maintenance as simple as possible. At least for a reef tank

“Require” is a strong word. I kept many reefs I considered successful without specifically dosing trace.

I think my current reef tank that uses AFR which includes trace is better for it.

Good salt is unlikely to maintain trace at desired levels as they get consumed. That doesn’t mean you won’t have a nice tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Grateful for everyone's input and all the comments! I ordered a Tunze Nano ATO.

Regarding the trace elements… do all supplements require daily dosing? Like AFR and Tropic Marin A & K? I use a high-quality salt and try to keep things in my tank and the maintenance as simple as possible. At least for a reef tank

Yes can certainly dose trace elements less than once a day.

 

[Luminous74]

From my point of view, the most important part of an ICP analysis is to first focus on the major elements. The more stable these are within their target range, the better a reef aquarium will run. This is always directly related to salinity: the higher the salinity, the higher the values should be in proportion – and vice versa. In this context, I also consider an ATO (automatic top-off system using RO water) to be very important to keep salinity stable.
That would be my first priority, possibly complemented by iodine – in my tank, one drop per week is sufficient. Once these parameters are stable and within range, the trace elements start to become truly relevant.
Regular water changes with Tropic Marin salt also continuously replenish trace elements. Whether or not to use AFR depends, in my opinion, on the actual consumption of alkalinity and calcium. I personally like AFR because it works very well in my system and adds both major and minor elements in a consumption-based manner.

 

[jackson6745]

Didn’t read the comments but I can tell it’s oes test. IMO OES is only good for the majors. Every coral in your tank could be dying from copper or tin and you’ll see non-detectable on OES. Worth the extra $20 for MS

 

[rishma]

From my point of view, the most important part of an ICP analysis is to first focus on the major elements. The more stable these are within their target range, the better a reef aquarium will run. This is always directly related to salinity: the higher the salinity, the higher the values should be in proportion – and vice versa. In this context, I also consider an ATO (automatic top-off system using RO water) to be very important to keep salinity stable.
That would be my first priority, possibly complemented by iodine – in my tank, one drop per week is sufficient. Once these parameters are stable and within range, the trace elements start to become truly relevant.
Regular water changes with Tropic Marin salt also continuously replenish trace elements. Whether or not to use AFR depends, in my opinion, on the actual consumption of alkalinity and calcium. I personally like AFR because it works very well in my system and adds both major and minor elements in a consumption-based manner.

Agree with all this except I don’t know iodine is that important. I dose it to keep in range per ICP but I observe no difference in my corals with/without. While widely recommended, I’m widely recommended, I am not sure there is strong evidence it’s important.

 

[rishma]

Didn’t read the comments but I can tell it’s oes test. IMO OES is only good for the majors. Every coral in your tank could be dying from copper or tin and you’ll see non-detectable on OES. Worth the extra $20 for MS

What copper or tin levels do you think kill corals?

 

[jackson6745]

What copper or tin levels do you think kill corals?

Tin above 8 will wipe out SPS, you’ll see negative effects and losses before that level however.

Copper over 2ug/l was enough to pale
Out my tenuis while many other acros were unfazed.

It’s coral specific, but there’s no benefit in general to numbers of this range and higher obviously. They get in the water through corrosion from magnets, pump impellers, heaters, uv’s and more, or just getting through your rodi. An ms ICP would show this elevation and give you a chance at intervention before everything dies. It’s more common than you think and most hobbyists have no idea. It gets deemed ‘bacterial’

 

[rishma]

Tin above 8 will wipe out SPS, you’ll see negative effects and losses before that level however.

Copper over 2ug/l was enough to pale
Out my tenuis while many other acros were unfazed.

It’s coral specific, but there’s no benefit in general to numbers of this range and higher obviously. They get in the water through corrosion from magnets, pump impellers, heaters, uv’s and more, or just getting through your rodi. An ms ICP would show this elevation and give you a chance at intervention before everything dies. It’s more common than you think and most hobbyists have no idea. It gets deemed ‘bacterial’

Ah, I think you told me about this when my copper was 3.4. I’m not sure where the copper could be coming from but I recall Hans-Werner sharing he thought is accumulates in tanks in a harmless form.

Copper isn’t present in magnets, etc. I do wonder where mine comes from

 

[Luminous74]

Agree with all this except I don’t know iodine is that important. I dose it to keep in range per ICP but I observe no difference in my corals with/without. While widely recommended, I’m widely recommended, I am not sure there is strong evidence it’s important.

I agree with you. I don’t dose iodine because I see a clear “wow effect” on the corals, but mainly to stay close to natural seawater values. I’ve been doing it for years now – probably more for my own peace of mind than for any clearly measurable coral response

 

[Luminous74]

Tin above 8 will wipe out SPS, you’ll see negative effects and losses before that level however.

Copper over 2ug/l was enough to pale
Out my tenuis while many other acros were unfazed.

It’s coral specific, but there’s no benefit in general to numbers of this range and higher obviously. They get in the water through corrosion from magnets, pump impellers, heaters, uv’s and more, or just getting through your rodi. An ms ICP would show this elevation and give you a chance at intervention before everything dies. It’s more common than you think and most hobbyists have no idea. It gets deemed ‘bacterial’

I agree that ICP-MS can be a useful diagnostic tool, especially when unexplained issues arise.
That said, we still don’t know the chemical speciation or bioavailability of the metals measured by ICP, and total concentration alone doesn’t necessarily equal toxicity.

Many successful systems run long-term using OES-based monitoring, and coral responses are often species-specific and strongly influenced by DOC, nutrients, and overall biology.

For me, ICP is a tool to provide context — not an absolute verdict.