Fish are dying

OP
T

TheLove

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 21, 2020
Messages
35
Reaction score
6
Location
Jakarta
i'd test again for AC and DC volt and take some photos.
DC volt in tank is worse than AC volt, I think.
All lamps are still off (LED hybrid with 4 T5HOs), chiller is still on standby:

AC volts 2.1V
20201024_133320.jpg


DC volts 0V
20201024_133243.jpg
 
Lazys Coral House

Garf

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 23, 2020
Messages
172
Reaction score
197
Location
United Kingdom
salifert test kit, it read <0.15 ppm.
What’s your pH? Personally I’ve never had an ammonia reading above zero on a cycled tank, although admittedly it’s not normally something I would test for. The badges are great for keeping an eye on new tanks, as are the seneye monitors and the seneye can also monitor pH which has a direct correlation with the proportion of NH3 and NH4 in the water.
 
OP
T

TheLove

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 21, 2020
Messages
35
Reaction score
6
Location
Jakarta
What’s your pH? Personally I’ve never had an ammonia reading above zero on a cycled tank, although admittedly it’s not normally something I would test for. The badges are great for keeping an eye on new tanks, as are the seneye monitors and the seneye can also monitor pH which has a direct correlation with the proportion of NH3 and NH4 in the water.
Lowest without light 8.21 and 8.35 end of the tank day.
In that range, is there more ammonia NH3 proportion or ammonium NH4?
 
Last edited:

Jay Hemdal

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
2,388
Reaction score
2,444
Location
Dundee
i don't have an aquarium controller to notify me if something happens with the tank. i'm afraid with a GFCI circuit, it can be blown without anyone noticing and I ended up having a tank without electricity while I'm at work.
I understand that worry, but voltage leakage isn’t always stable and can get worse, so be very careful about your safety. When I was 12, I reached into a hot tank and it knocked me down and really rattled my teeth....I was lucky. That said, is see you are in Malta, and I know nothing about your electrical system/voltage.

Jay
 

SMSREEF

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
May 27, 2016
Messages
1,784
Reaction score
3,432
Location
Miami
Also if you have voltage, you also likely have metals leaching into your tank from whatever that voltage is coming from.

@Brew12 what are your thoughts on these fish deaths and stray voltage?
 
Shop Online with Zoanthids.com!
OP
T

TheLove

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 21, 2020
Messages
35
Reaction score
6
Location
Jakarta
Also if you have voltage, you also likely have metals leaching into your tank from whatever that voltage is coming from.

1. Is that possible to have 0 AC Volt? How do you manage to have 0 AC voltage?
2. I got higher AC voltage reading when my lamps are on. They aren't in water and neither are their cords. Is there any explaination on this?
 
OP
T

TheLove

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 21, 2020
Messages
35
Reaction score
6
Location
Jakarta
I understand that worry, but voltage leakage isn’t always stable and can get worse, so be very careful about your safety. When I was 12, I reached into a hot tank and it knocked me down and really rattled my teeth....I was lucky. That said, is see you are in Malta, and I know nothing about your electrical system/voltage.

Jay
So sorry about that accident.

I also don't know the electrical system in my country ;-P

However I'm still looking for a solution.
I was thinking about Rid-Volts... or if I can get a titanium rod then i'll directly connect that titanium rod in water with a copper rod in the ground.
 

SMSREEF

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
May 27, 2016
Messages
1,784
Reaction score
3,432
Location
Miami
1. Is that possible to have 0 AC Volt? How do you manage to have 0 AC voltage?
2. I got higher AC voltage reading when my lamps are on. They aren't in water and neither are their cords. Is there any explaination on this?
I’m not an electrician, but @Brew12 may be able to answer questions

To clarify, when you measured 11.3 VAC Was there anything in the tank? Heater, powerhead, pump?

I do think disease is most likely for the fish deaths. But concerned about the voltage...
 

Brew12

Electrical Gru
View Badges
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
22,097
Reaction score
59,314
Location
Decatur, AL
Also if you have voltage, you also likely have metals leaching into your tank from whatever that voltage is coming from.

@Brew12 what are your thoughts on these fish deaths and stray voltage?
Thank you for the invite!

I'm heading out for an 8 mile trail run in a few minutes so won't be available again until later today, but I'll leave a few quick comments after reading through the thread. I am very sorry for your losses, this is a tough one.

First is that @Jay Hemdal is absolutely correct in that it is nearly impossible to electrocute a marine fish because they are less conductive than the water they swim in. You can do it to a FW fish, not SW.

2nd, you should never have any type of DC in your tank. Even what we call DC motors are fed with some type of AC. It's not a true sine wave so meters may not read it correctly, but it is AC.

3rd is that, unless you run a ground probe or grounded titanium heater, having AC voltage in your tank is very normal. You can wrap an extension cord around a bucket of salt water, plug a large load into it, and read over 50V inside the bucket. It is due to induction and shouldn't bother fish in the least. My system, with the heaters unplugged and the ground probe removed, reads 24VAC. It is under 1VAC with them plugged in.

The real concern is if you have a fault voltage from a bad cord or pump in your water. The easiest way to determine which is which is to try running the system on a GFCI (GCD) with a ground probe. If the GFCI/GCD trips, this is a very bad thing. A failed pump can leach copper and other toxins into your system which absolutely can kill fish.

Hope that helps, I'll swing buy later today to see if there are any questions.
 
OP
T

TheLove

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 21, 2020
Messages
35
Reaction score
6
Location
Jakarta
To clarify, when you measured 11.3 VAC Was there anything in the tank? Heater, powerhead, pump?

All are running.
And also this afternoon 2.1 AC volt, all powerheads, return pumps, skimmer, pH controller, & doser are running; lights and chiller are off.
 
Shop Online with Zoanthids.com!

Jay Hemdal

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
2,388
Reaction score
2,444
Location
Dundee
Thank you for the invite!

I'm heading out for an 8 mile trail run in a few minutes so won't be available again until later today, but I'll leave a few quick comments after reading through the thread. I am very sorry for your losses, this is a tough one.

First is that @Jay Hemdal is absolutely correct in that it is nearly impossible to electrocute a marine fish because they are less conductive than the water they swim in. You can do it to a FW fish, not SW.

2nd, you should never have any type of DC in your tank. Even what we call DC motors are fed with some type of AC. It's not a true sine wave so meters may not read it correctly, but it is AC.

3rd is that, unless you run a ground probe or grounded titanium heater, having AC voltage in your tank is very normal. You can wrap an extension cord around a bucket of salt water, plug a large load into it, and read over 50V inside the bucket. It is due to induction and shouldn't bother fish in the least. My system, with the heaters unplugged and the ground probe removed, reads 24VAC. It is under 1VAC with them plugged in.

The real concern is if you have a fault voltage from a bad cord or pump in your water. The easiest way to determine which is which is to try running the system on a GFCI (GCD) with a ground probe. If the GFCI/GCD trips, this is a very bad thing. A failed pump can leach copper and other toxins into your system which absolutely can kill fish.

Hope that helps, I'll swing buy later today to see if there are any questions.
Thanks for your thoughts, have you written anything up about this issue? PM me if interested, we could work on it together. My problem is that stray voltage keeps getting blamed for HLLE, when it isn’t the culprit. One problem I’ve seen is actual electrolysis in water, forming sulfates and hydrogen gas.

Jay
 
OP
T

TheLove

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 21, 2020
Messages
35
Reaction score
6
Location
Jakarta
you should never have any type of DC in your tank. Even what we call DC motors are fed with some type of AC. It's not a true sine wave so meters may not
Yaay... 0 DC volt.
20201024_133243.jpg


You can wrap an extension cord around a bucket of salt water, plug a large load into it, and read over 50V inside the bucket. It is due to induction and shouldn't bother fish in the least. My system, with the heaters unplugged and the ground probe removed, reads 24VAC. It is under 1VAC with them plugged in.
What a relief. Yep there are some AC cords in water. So no need for Rid-Volts ?

The real concern is if you have a fault voltage from a bad cord or pump in your water. The easiest way to determine which is which is to try running the system on a GFCI (GCD) with a ground probe. If the GFCI/GCD trips, this is a very bad thing. A failed pump can leach copper and other toxins into your system which absolutely can kill fish.
Ok will try with GFCI connector just to investigate. I wouldn't want copper or any toxin in water.

Thank you very much @Brew12
 

Brew12

Electrical Gru
View Badges
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
22,097
Reaction score
59,314
Location
Decatur, AL
Yaay... 0 DC volt.
20201024_133243.jpg



What a relief. Yep there are some AC cords in water. So no need for Rid-Volts ?


Ok will try with GFCI connector just to investigate. I wouldn't want copper or any toxin in water.

Thank you very much @Brew12
I run with a ground probe, which is what I think you are referring to as Rid-Volts. I run my system off of 2 separate GFCI/RCD outlets so that if one trips I won't lose all flow through the tank. To me, the most valuable thing a ground probe does is cause the GFCI/RCD to trip as soon as a piece of equipment develops a fault. By de-energizing it immediately it reduces the amount of toxins released into the water and alerts me to the problem sooner.
 

Brew12

Electrical Gru
View Badges
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
22,097
Reaction score
59,314
Location
Decatur, AL
Thanks for your thoughts, have you written anything up about this issue? PM me if interested, we could work on it together. My problem is that stray voltage keeps getting blamed for HLLE, when it isn’t the culprit. One problem I’ve seen is actual electrolysis in water, forming sulfates and hydrogen gas.

Jay
Jay,

I put this post together a few years ago that was turned into an article.

The possibility of an induced voltage causing or not causing HLLE is above my pay grade. I suspect it does not, but I can't say that with any certainty.
A person standing on a rubber insulating mat or working from an insulated bucket truck can safely grab a 13,000V transmission line with their bare hands. It is actually a common practice. You can't feel anything when this happens because we have no reference ground voltage to compare it to. If we touch 13kV and ground at the same time, it would likely be fatal.
A fish is always at the same potential as the water. It can't experience any significant difference in voltage. Based on this, I find it highly unlikely that a fish can tell if the aquarium water is at 1 VAC or 1,000 VAC. For this reason, I find electricity to be an unlikely cause of HLLE.
I suspect that most HLLE blamed on electrical faults is actually caused by the toxins released by the fault, not due to the electricity itself. The only reason I can't say this with conviction is that I don't have an acceptable knowledge of the electrical receptors in fish. Fish can hunt and navigate in seawater using these receptors. For that to happen, these receptors need to be extremely sensitive. Is it possible that something about the electricity in our systems aggravates the receptors and can cause HLLE? I can't rule it out even if I find it highly unlikely.
 

Jay Hemdal

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
2,388
Reaction score
2,444
Location
Dundee
Jay,

I put this post together a few years ago that was turned into an article.

The possibility of an induced voltage causing or not causing HLLE is above my pay grade. I suspect it does not, but I can't say that with any certainty.
A person standing on a rubber insulating mat or working from an insulated bucket truck can safely grab a 13,000V transmission line with their bare hands. It is actually a common practice. You can't feel anything when this happens because we have no reference ground voltage to compare it to. If we touch 13kV and ground at the same time, it would likely be fatal.
A fish is always at the same potential as the water. It can't experience any significant difference in voltage. Based on this, I find it highly unlikely that a fish can tell if the aquarium water is at 1 VAC or 1,000 VAC. For this reason, I find electricity to be an unlikely cause of HLLE.
I suspect that most HLLE blamed on electrical faults is actually caused by the toxins released by the fault, not due to the electricity itself. The only reason I can't say this with conviction is that I don't have an acceptable knowledge of the electrical receptors in fish. Fish can hunt and navigate in seawater using these receptors. For that to happen, these receptors need to be extremely sensitive. Is it possible that something about the electricity in our systems aggravates the receptors and can cause HLLE? I can't rule it out even if I find it highly unlikely.

I studied stray voltage and HLLE very extensively years ago, before I ran my carbon study. I never published, but I feel very strongly that it is a red herring. What happens is people see HLLE on their fish, test for voltage and find it. That isn't causation. I tested every system in our aquarium and there was zero correlation to the "stray voltage" and the incidence of HLLE. Same thing with copper causing it; so many people use carbon to remove the copper after a treatment, and then when HLLE shows up, they blame the copper (grin).

In terms of toxins being released by failing electrical equipment: I've seen issues with copper and zinc release, as well as oil released from sump pumps that failed. The other issue is that electrolysis that I mentioned - the chemistry involved is way too complicated for me to understand, but sulfate production is an issue, as is chlorine. My guess is that many of the other constituent salts create their own nasty reactions, bromine formation for example.

Jay
 

Brew12

Electrical Gru
View Badges
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
22,097
Reaction score
59,314
Location
Decatur, AL
I studied stray voltage and HLLE very extensively years ago, before I ran my carbon study. I never published, but I feel very strongly that it is a red herring. What happens is people see HLLE on their fish, test for voltage and find it. That isn't causation. I tested every system in our aquarium and there was zero correlation to the "stray voltage" and the incidence of HLLE. Same thing with copper causing it; so many people use carbon to remove the copper after a treatment, and then when HLLE shows up, they blame the copper (grin).

In terms of toxins being released by failing electrical equipment: I've seen issues with copper and zinc release, as well as oil released from sump pumps that failed. The other issue is that electrolysis that I mentioned - the chemistry involved is way too complicated for me to understand, but sulfate production is an issue, as is chlorine. My guess is that many of the other constituent salts create their own nasty reactions, bromine formation for example.

Jay
I'm thrilled to know someone has done that research! I couldn't imagine it causing a problem, but I couldn't back it up, either.
Anecdotal evidence can be very useful in this hobby since it isn't cost effective to do scientific studies for many potential issues. Unfortunately, stray voltage lends itself very well to an ergo proctor hoc post hoc fallacy.
All tanks that aren't grounded will have a stray voltage induced. It isn't just HLLE that gets blamed for stray voltage. It is so easy to have someone plant the suggestion to test for voltage and then believe it is the cause when it is found. Not many people check for voltage on a system that isn't having problems.
While I strongly encourage ground probes and GFCI, I've never seen a single case of removing the stray voltage actually fixing an issue unless a failed electrical component was found.

Not sure what I can do to help because it sounds like you have all the research you need along with a very good grasp of how voltage can impact a tank. I'm more than happy to help if there is something I can do.
 
OP
T

TheLove

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 21, 2020
Messages
35
Reaction score
6
Location
Jakarta
I run with a ground probe, which is what I think you are referring to as Rid-Volts. I run my system off of 2 separate GFCI/RCD outlets so that if one trips I won't lose all flow through the tank. To me, the most valuable thing a ground probe does is cause the GFCI/RCD to trip as soon as a piece of equipment develops a fault. By de-energizing it immediately it reduces the amount of toxins released into the water and alerts me to the problem sooner.
Great advice for splitting flows into 2 GFCI outlets.
Wall = GFCI outlet, then connect to smart socket for plugging equipments. Is this correct?

May I confirm should there’s a current leakage (normally from one equipment), it will only trip one GFCI outlet (one with that faulty equipment), not both altogether?

Is GFCI different than ELCB?
Many thanks.
 

Brew12

Electrical Gru
View Badges
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
22,097
Reaction score
59,314
Location
Decatur, AL
Great advice for splitting flows into 2 GFCI outlets.
Wall = GFCI outlet, then connect to smart socket for plugging equipments. Is this correct?

May I confirm should there’s a current leakage (normally from one equipment), it will only trip one GFCI outlet (one with that faulty equipment), not both altogether?

Is GFCI different than ELCB?
Many thanks.
An ELCB is a circuit breaker, a GFCI can be a circuit breaker or an outlet. But they are functionally the same thing.
My last 2 systems were set up differently. One of them only had 4 electrical loads that were submerged. I used the ends of cords wired in to GFCI outlets that I plugged into an Apex. This gave me 4 independent GFCI protected devices. The only thing I would have lost is the faulted equipment.
On my current system, I have my Profilux power bars plugged into different GFCI's. One will take out my return pump, skimmer, and heaters. The other will take out my gyres, filter pumps, and CaRx.
 

Dolelo96

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 29, 2014
Messages
2,831
Reaction score
16,321
Location
Jacksonville
thanks for saying that.



behavior wise --> my fish weren't like your clownfish, more toward your Tang.
however i find it difficult to observe velvet on your Tang. sorry, i'm a newbie... don't have a good eye for parasite or fish sickness.



My plan is to have only utilitarian fish : algae control & pest control. Hopefully by the number of the fish, I have enough stock to maintain some nitrate in the water.
What is your suggestion for that purpose?

Snails & Crabs are great algae eaters. Hermits and or emerald crabs. Here is an article about inverts


With your tank size, I would look at a tail spot or bicolor blenny. You could ATTEMPT a six line wrasse. Some people love theirs, and others think they are evil. They are known to eat some pests. I would suggest doing a lot of research before adding any fish to the tank. You have plenty of time before you need to make any decisions.

A good place to start reading/asking questions about fish

 

mitch91175

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Messages
2,795
Reaction score
2,134
Location
Rowlett, TX
As I said before, I would have expected that velvet would have caused fish loss much faster, but I'm struggling to come up with another solution. It sure seems like it might have been velvet to me. I'm just guessing here - but perhaps velvet, infecting established fish, shows different symptoms? We normally see velvet in new fish, and perhaps in longer term captives, it presents differently?

Jay

I know when I had my velvet outbreak a few years ago it affected all my fish the same even though they had been in system for over 2 years. Most of them survived but same symptoms as you'd expect from velvet.
 

How's your tank currently looking?

  • Never better

    Votes: 57 15.2%
  • Pretty good

    Votes: 164 43.9%
  • Just OK

    Votes: 81 21.7%
  • Not great

    Votes: 41 11.0%
  • Prett Bad

    Votes: 14 3.7%
  • Yuck

    Votes: 8 2.1%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 9 2.4%

Online statistics

Members online
2,173
Guests online
5,709
Total visitors
7,882
Innovative Marine
Top