Fishless Cycle

[MnFish1]

I added bacteria AND ammonia. Dr Tims ammonia tells you just how many drops to put in it. Took less than 3 weeks to cycle my tank using Seachems stuff.

Do you mean stability? BTW - out of curiousity (I have used stability as well) - why not just add fish - instead of ammonia..?

 

[Calpoly2103]

For the book nitrite is NO2 and nitrate is NO3.



It is easy to explain. All hobby nitrate tests I know about is based om the method that first reduce NO3 to NO2 and after that analyse the NO2 level. Your colour chart will after this translate the read NO2 into the orginal NO3 value. If you have NO2 already in the water (before the nitrate had been reduced to NO2) the NO3 test will give a false result. Your test show 40 ppm NO3 but its false - you probably have 0. But your NO2 level of 1 ppm will cause the NO3 test to show between 50 - 100 time more than the original value. IMO - it is total worthless to analyse NO3 before the tank is full cycled and there is no NO2 in the water.

Sincerely Lasse

Wow....had no clue on this. Thank you for the excellent advice. Now I understand that its a false nitrate reading. I guess I won't test Nitrate again until my ammonia and nitrite are consistently zero.

Follow up question, is it normal to not see any ammonia spike though? I literally tested ammonia 8 hours after putting in 120 drops and it was at 0 (sunday), and it was at 0 two days later too (yesterday). Could the bacteria be converting from Ammonia to Nitrite that quickly?

 

[KrisReef]

When I start a fishless cycle do I just add the appropriate ammonia alone or should I be using ammonia AND nitrifying bacteria as well. ?

Add ammonia, and then use
MicroBacter7
according to the instructions on the bottle.

This will provide your fish-less tank with everything that the fish introduction would have came with except for reducing the possible introduction of unwanted pathogenic hitchhiker.

*Everyone has a different method and favorite bacterial source and safe time frames for results. I've recommended another bacteria-in-a-bottle product that I have used and found effective. The other sources of bottled bacteria are probably the same strains or at least close cousins, and time of results is impacted by heat, light, tides, currents, mortgage payments, and sales at the LFS, apparently. HTH

Oh, and @Lasse is correct about the nomenclature for nitrate/nitrate and a lot of other things as well!
Sincerely,
Kris

 

[Lasse]

The first stage - NH4 to NO2 is normally of no problems. In fresh water it have been shown that this reaction can take place in rather low oxygen levels too - less than 4 ppm. However the process often stall before the next step NO2 into NO3. This have been up to very much of discussion because it is also known that the bacteria that are responsible for this step is faster growing species compared with the bacteria that have been associated with the first step. today we know that it could be other organisms associated with the first step (archaea´s) and hence explain the fast development of the first step. If you have a fast conversion of ammonia (NH3/NH4) you shoul probably read a high NO2 level. You can do the math Nitrogen is around 0.77 of the NH4 and the N part of NO2 is around 0.29 of the NO2 level. If you put in 1 ppm NH4 (0,77 ppm NH4-N) you should read around 2.6 - 2.7 ppm NO2 if all is NH4 is converted to NO2. The answer is basically - yes

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Calpoly2103]

The first stage - NH4 to NO2 is normally of no problems. In fresh water it have been shown that this reaction can take place in rather low oxygen levels too - less than 4 ppm. However the process often stall before the next step NO2 into NO3. This have been up to very much of discussion because it is also known that the bacteria that are responsible for this step is faster growing species compared with the bacteria that have been associated with the first step. today we know that it could be other organisms associated with the first step (archaea´s) and hence explain the fast development of the first step. If you have a fast conversion of ammonia (NH3/NH4) you shoul probably read a high NO2 level. You can do the math Nitrogen is around 0.77 of the NH4 and the N part of NO2 is around 0.29 of the NO2 level. If you put in 1 ppm NH4 (0,77 ppm NH4-N) you should read around 2.6 - 2.7 ppm NO2 if all is NH4 is converted to NO2. The answer is basically - yes

Sincerely Lasse

I appreciate the explanation. It makes sense. I will need to be careful not to dose too much ammonia then. Wouldn't want to get Nitrite over 5ppm and stall the cycle. Thanks again, this was very helpful.

 

[MnFish1]

this step is faster growing species compared with the bacteria that have been associated with the first step. today we know that it could be other organisms associated with the first step (archaea´s) and hence explain the fast development of the first step.

This - Do you think @Lasse that some of the 'bottled bacteria' rather than containing heterotrophs - contain archaea which are more hardy - as compared to nitrosomonas, nitrobacteria, etc?

 

[Lasse]

I am always very suspicious when somethings state “contains useful bacteria”. In the start I always try to avoid these combined bacteria solutions – I prefer products that contain only nitrifying bacteria and especially nitrobacter and nitrospira. There are some weak indications that “the stall” of NO2 can be linked to too low PO4 contain in the water in the start. Therefore – I always try to have measurable PO4 levels in the start.


Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dr. Reef]

Stalling of cycle is also related to low alkalinity in the water when using bottle bacteria not so much in saltwater but definitely in freshwater.
If doing fishless cycle. Fritz Turbostart 900 seems to work the best followed by Dr Tim one and only and Bio Spria.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Nitrifiers "consume" inorganic carbon (bicarbonates, carbonates) if there is very low alk they cannot function.

 

[ScottR]

For the book nitrite is NO2 and nitrate is NO3.



It is easy to explain. All hobby nitrate tests I know about is based om the method that first reduce NO3 to NO2 and after that analyse the NO2 level. Your colour chart will after this translate the read NO2 into the orginal NO3 value. If you have NO2 already in the water (before the nitrate had been reduced to NO2) the NO3 test will give a false result. Your test show 40 ppm NO3 but its false - you probably have 0. But your NO2 level of 1 ppm will cause the NO3 test to show between 50 - 100 time more than the orginal value. IMO - it is total worthless to analyse NO3 before the tank is full cycled and there is no NO2 in the water.

Sincerely Lasse

Yes, NO2 nitrite NO3 nitrate ;Blackeye My brain sometimes....

 

[Dkeller_nc]

Just trying to help someone get in the right place without rushing. I could set up a freshwater tank right now with tap water, an air stone and a cheap filter and all my fish would live. Do the same with SW and wake up to a jungle of hair algae and dead fish the next day. A bit of an exaggeration but not far off.

I get the point you're trying to make, but as someone that's kept tropical freshwater fish for the last 45 years or so, I will assure you that chlorinated tap water, an uncycled tank/filter, and most species of tropical freshwater fish that people are interested in will result in a tank full of dead fish in 3 days or less.

But you're correct in that saltwater fish are generally far more sensitive to ammonia, perhaps because of the relatively alkaline pH that they're adapted to. This, btw, is a factor in keeping african cichlids, especially the more delicate peacocks and tropheus - the alkaline pH that you should be keeping them in makes them a good deal less tolerant of a little ammonia in the water than soft, acidic water fish from the Amazon.

 

[TedsReef]

Do you mean stability? BTW - out of curiousity (I have used stability as well) - why not just add fish - instead of ammonia..?

Yes I used stability and fritz turbo. With a fish you may stress the fish since it will spend some time in a high ammonia environment. You also have no idea how much ammonia is in the tank. By dosing ammonia you can directly control the ammonia level in the tank. Dr Tim’s ammonia tells you exactly how many drops to get a specific volume of water to 2ppm ammonia. I believe what I did was repeat this process of dosing to 2ppm when ammonia dropped below 0.5ppm. When the tank fully converted the 2ppm ammonia to nitrate in 12hrs I considered my tank cycled.

 

[TedsReef]

Lol, kinda got off track. Add the bacteria and and add 2ppm of ammonia. Dr. Tim's has 2 revisions, some take 1 drop/gallon, some take 4 drop/gallon. Whatever your bottle says is correct. Watch for an ammonia spike, then nitrite spike, then nitrate rise. I personally would add a lot of dr. tim's on the first day, then keep adding every day for the first month. Get another brand of nitrifying bacteria as well for some potential diversity (not proven, just anecdotal).

Once the parameters hit zero you can try again. You are looking for the ammonia to turn to nitrate in 24 hours.

This is not my preferred way to cycle a tank, but it will work and is one way to skin a cat.

Best of luck!

100% do NOT dose massive amounts of ammonia. Follow the directions on the products you buy. Don’t dose above 2ppm or you could spike nitrites and stall the cycle. Dose to 2ppm and then test ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate daily. When ammonia drops below 0.5 or 1ppm (you wont screw stuff up if it’s not perfect) dose the 2ppm amount again. Repeat until your tank fully processes 2ppm ammonia to nitrate in 12hrs. Then you can add fish.

I believe I followed the bac in a bottle guide that’s stickied somewhere in these forums!

 

[TedsReef]

Found the post - just follow this and you’ll be gold!

Cycling an Aquarium
https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?threads/Cycling-an-Aquarium.306554/

 

[ccombs]

100% do NOT dose massive amounts of ammonia. Follow the directions on the products you buy. Don’t dose above 2ppm or you could spike nitrites and stall the cycle. Dose to 2ppm and then test ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate daily. When ammonia drops below 0.5 or 1ppm (you wont screw stuff up if it’s not perfect) dose the 2ppm amount again. Repeat until your tank fully processes 2ppm ammonia to nitrate in 12hrs. Then you can add fish.

I believe I followed the bac in a bottle guide that’s stickied somewhere in these forums!

I did not recommend dosing massive amounts. I specified 2ppm as you did.

 

[ccombs]

100% do NOT dose massive amounts of ammonia. Follow the directions on the products you buy. Don’t dose above 2ppm or you could spike nitrites and stall the cycle. Dose to 2ppm and then test ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate daily. When ammonia drops below 0.5 or 1ppm (you wont screw stuff up if it’s not perfect) dose the 2ppm amount again. Repeat until your tank fully processes 2ppm ammonia to nitrate in 12hrs. Then you can add fish.

I believe I followed the bac in a bottle guide that’s stickied somewhere in these forums!

If you are referring to my 'adding lots on the first day' and 'adding more every day' that was in reference to the bottled bacteria. I can understand the confusion when I read back over it. Dr. Tim's makes both the ammonia and bacteria so I was not very clear.

I added a note to my post to clear up any confusion, I realize I was not specific in which Dr. Tim's products I was referring to and used the phrase "Dr. Tim's" for both the ammonia and bacteria in the same paragraph.

 

[Lasse]

I get the point you're trying to make, but as someone that's kept tropical freshwater fish for the last 45 years or so, I will assure you that chlorinated tap water, an uncycled tank/filter, and most species of tropical freshwater fish that people are interested in will result in a tank full of dead fish in 3 days or less.

IMO - soft water freshwater tank is much more difficult to cycle compared with a saltwater tank and keeping east african chichlids (and some from Central America too) is rather like keeping salt water fish. This mainly because of two things - first

Nitrifiers "consume" inorganic carbon (bicarbonates, carbonates) if there is very low alk they cannot function.

Second :

NO2 in the water is taken up by the fish gill´s and released into the bloodstream there it "hinder" the blood to take up oxygen by forming a new type of haemoglobin. This process is depended of “channels” in the gill. These channels will be blocked of even low concentrations of chloride ions in the water, hence blocking the uptake of NO2. As low concentration as around 80 ppm of free Cl ions in the water can hinder the NO2 uptake of the fish. This correspond to around one tablespoon of table salt/ 100 litre of water. The concentration of Cl ions in saltwater is around 19 000 ppm.


NO2 in the water is highly toxic to FW fish if there is no Cl ions in the water, hence – the famous “stall” of the nitrification cycle will kill tons of fresh water fish every year but none SW fish.

But you're correct in that saltwater fish are generally far more sensitive to ammonia, perhaps because of the relatively alkaline pH that they're adapted to. This, btw, is a factor in keeping african cichlids, especially the more delicate peacocks and tropheus - the alkaline pH that you should be keeping them in makes them a good deal less tolerant of a little ammonia in the water than soft, acidic water fish from the Amazon.

Ammonia in general is nontoxic but one of the "ammonia" species is – ammoniac is highly toxic. (ammonia the American way – NH4/NH3 – in Europe we differ between ammonium - NH4 - and ammoniac - NH3. NH4 not toxic, NH4 highly toxic. The concentration of the highly toxic species (NH3 or ammoniac) in a given concentration of ammonia (NH4/NH3) is depended mostly of the pH and the temperature. This is the reason why high alkaline adapted fishes (east African and some central American species of FW fish as an example) seems more sensitive to ammonia (NH4/NH3) than fishes in soft water. The simple explanation is that there is more of the toxic form (NH3) in high alkaline water (read high pH) in the ammonia complex (NH4/NH3) in such water. SW is high pH water.

Yes I used stability and fritz turbo. With a fish you may stress the fish since it will spend some time in a high ammonia environment. You also have no idea how much ammonia is in the tank. By dosing ammonia you can directly control the ammonia level in the tank. Dr Tim’s ammonia tells you exactly how many drops to get a specific volume of water to 2ppm ammonia. I believe what I did was repeat this process of dosing to 2ppm when ammonia dropped below 0.5ppm. When the tank fully converted the 2ppm ammonia to nitrate in 12hrs I considered my tank cycled.

This is not the whole truth - the secretion of NH4 / NH3 is linked with the intake of food, the majority of this excretion occurring during the first hours after the fish has eat. You can easily manage the output of NH4/NH3 from the fish with the amount you feed and therefore slowly add very low amount of NH4/NH3 into the water. In a freshly started aquarium – there is very few other sources of NH4/NH3 into the water, hence your feeding regime determines the amount of NH4/NH3 you add. It is possible this way to make a cycle without any signs of free toxic NH3 and no stall of the nitrification process with help of a strict feeding regime and input of nitrifying bacteria during 3 weeks with help of one ore two fish. See my article. During this three week you can also add CUC and corals if you want.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[PatW]

Bacteria will find its way into your system with ammonia alone. But a starter culture will add a population to build from and it will progress considerably faster.

 

[PatW]

Bacteria will find its way into your system with ammonia alone. But a starter culture will add a population to build from and it will progress considerably faster.

 

[Tyler Bullock]

I will never set up a tank again without a bottle of bacteria. I cycled a 10 gallon in 4 days, currently cycling a 90 gallon with bacteria and ammonia.