Fishless Cycling Day 5 - 20g

ReeferintheSky

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Hello,

I am starting up my very first aquarium and I was wondering if I could get some suggestions on what steps I should take, if any, to further along the cycle. I am on day 5 and have a 20g AIO with 20 lbs rock and 10 lbs of aragonite. I used Dr. Tim's One and Only (good for up to 30 gallon) and dumped the whole thing in. I used Dr. Tim's ammonium chloride to dose to 2 ppm ammonia. I have been using the API test kit to test the water every day. Nothing has changed. PH is still 8, ammonia is still 2 ppm, no nitrite or nitrate. Water temp is around 85 fahrenheit. Biological filter media is in tank, powerhead and pump are running, no lights.

Is it possible the API kit is faulty and I should try a different kit? Could the bacteria be dead? I ended up ordering another bottle of Dr. Tim's One and Only just in case. Should I try a water change? Orrrrr am I being impatient and should just hurry up and wait?

Thank you for any recommendations!
 

Azedenkae

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Hello,

I am starting up my very first aquarium and I was wondering if I could get some suggestions on what steps I should take, if any, to further along the cycle. I am on day 5 and have a 20g AIO with 20 lbs rock and 10 lbs of aragonite. I used Dr. Tim's One and Only (good for up to 30 gallon) and dumped the whole thing in. I used Dr. Tim's ammonium chloride to dose to 2 ppm ammonia. I have been using the API test kit to test the water every day. Nothing has changed. PH is still 8, ammonia is still 2 ppm, no nitrite or nitrate. Water temp is around 85 fahrenheit. Biological filter media is in tank, powerhead and pump are running, no lights.

Is it possible the API kit is faulty and I should try a different kit? Could the bacteria be dead? I ended up ordering another bottle of Dr. Tim's One and Only just in case. Should I try a water change? Orrrrr am I being impatient and should just hurry up and wait?

Thank you for any recommendations!
1. It may just be taking time to work, so patience may all be what is needed. However! A lot of people have issues with Dr. Tim's One and Only recently. If you can, I would suggest cancelling the order, and get something more often cited to work recently instead, like Bio-Spira or FritzZyme TurboStart 900. The latter seems to be the best product. Someone did an experiment on this forum to find that out: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bacteria-in-a-bottle-myth-or-fact.403226/
2. What sort of rock did you begin with? I presume dry rock, rather than live rock?
3. API ammonia test kit are known to be 'inaccurate', but not 'imprecise'. I.e. You can't really differentiate between different levels, but it does provide consistent results. If you want to test it, get a sample of fresh water and test it - should be 0, hopefully. Then dose 2ppm ammonia in a gallon of freshwater, and see if it is 2ppm higher. If so, then at least the test seems fine.
 
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ReeferintheSky

ReeferintheSky

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1. It may just be taking time to work, so patience may all be what is needed. However! A lot of people have issues with Dr. Tim's One and Only recently. If you can, I would suggest cancelling the order, and get something more often cited to work recently instead, like Bio-Spira or FritzZyme TurboStart 900. The latter seems to be the best product. Someone did an experiment on this forum to find that out: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bacteria-in-a-bottle-myth-or-fact.403226/
2. What sort of rock did you begin with? I presume dry rock, rather than live rock?
3. API ammonia test kit are known to be 'inaccurate', but not 'imprecise'. I.e. You can't really differentiate between different levels, but it does provide consistent results. If you want to test it, get a sample of fresh water and test it - should be 0, hopefully. Then dose 2ppm ammonia in a gallon of freshwater, and see if it is 2ppm higher. If so, then at least the test seems fine.
Thank you for the info! I think I was able to cancel my order for Dr. Tim's stuff (still waiting to hear from Amazon) I ended up ordering a bottle of the TurboStart 900. I'll test ammonia in a gallon of freshwater today to see how that goes.

I am starting with dry rock, Carib Sea - South Sea Base Rock.

Last night I notice that my salinity was pretty dang high. I was about to top off with the water in my 32 gallon brute but stopped right before I started and thought for a second... I have saltwater in that brute. I don't have a container with just freshwater. So the three or four times I have topped off the tank I have used the saltwater. I'm glad I got that sorted out! Not sure if that can cause a cycle to stall but I think I read that bringing salinity down can help with a cycle.

I'll post an update later!
 

Jekyl

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I would just have patience. Even when waiting you have in turn learned more about the hobby. Even though numbers haven't changed the way you expected your tank is still progressing. I would get your water situation worked out. Saltwater on hand isn't necessary before doing a water change but fresh rodi is needed for top off daily.
 

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Thank you for the info! I think I was able to cancel my order for Dr. Tim's stuff (still waiting to hear from Amazon) I ended up ordering a bottle of the TurboStart 900. I'll test ammonia in a gallon of freshwater today to see how that goes.

I am starting with dry rock, Carib Sea - South Sea Base Rock.

Last night I notice that my salinity was pretty dang high. I was about to top off with the water in my 32 gallon brute but stopped right before I started and thought for a second... I have saltwater in that brute. I don't have a container with just freshwater. So the three or four times I have topped off the tank I have used the saltwater. I'm glad I got that sorted out! Not sure if that can cause a cycle to stall but I think I read that bringing salinity down can help with a cycle.

I'll post an update later!
Cool cool, yep let us know how it goes. High salinity can indeed potentially slow down the cycle. But glad you caught it early.
 
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ReeferintheSky

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I think I am on my way! I ended up getting the TurboStart 900 and dosed the entire bottle on Saturday. Yesterday I checked parameters and nothing changed. So, I started thinking. Turns out I never calibrated the refractometer. I calibrated it and found it to be way off, so I still had way too much salt. I did a water change and added freshwater. I checked parameters at lunch today and Ammonia is 0.5 ppm and nitrite is 2 ppm. I think I am heading in the right direction!
 

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I think I am on my way! I ended up getting the TurboStart 900 and dosed the entire bottle on Saturday. Yesterday I checked parameters and nothing changed. So, I started thinking. Turns out I never calibrated the refractometer. I calibrated it and found it to be way off, so I still had way too much salt. I did a water change and added freshwater. I checked parameters at lunch today and Ammonia is 0.5 ppm and nitrite is 2 ppm. I think I am heading in the right direction!
Yep, sounds great.
 
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So, I am not sure if my tank is cycled or not. I am able to dose 2 ppm ammonium chloride and within 24 hours ammonia is back to 0 ppm. My nitrite has been staying at a constant 2 ppm, nitrate staying around 20 ppm. I've read differing opinions on nitrite. I've seen some people say that if ammonia is able to go to 0 ppm fairly quickly after dosing ammonium chloride, then the tank is cycled and, the nitrite levels don't necessarily have to drop to 0 ppm. Others have said that nitrite and ammonia need to drop to 0 ppm.

So I just learned if I have nitrites present then the nitrate test will be messed up. So, I don't know what my nitrate is then!
 
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Azedenkae

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So, I am not sure if my tank is cycled or not. I am able to dose 2 ppm ammonium chloride and within 24 hours ammonia is back to 0 ppm. My nitrite has been staying at a constant 2 ppm, nitrate staying around 20 ppm. I've read differing opinions on nitrite. I've seen some people say that if ammonia is able to go to 0 ppm fairly quickly after dosing ammonium chloride, then the tank is cycled and, the nitrite levels don't necessarily have to drop to 0 ppm. Others have said that nitrite and ammonia need to drop to 0 ppm.
So with nitrites, it is non-toxic to marine fish unless it reaches really, really, really, REALLY high levels. Like, really high. Check this article out: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php. However, nitrite does not have to be massively high to start causing diseases. A study recommended to keep nitrite below 25ppm for ocellaris clownfish: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10499-015-9965-9.

So how is this all relevant? Well a lot of people would say it is so hard to hit such high levels of nitrite that it is nothing to worry about, and I think this is the case with most cycles. I am sure for a lot of people who are experienced, it is absolutely the case that they don't really need to worry about it and everything's still fine, since they know what to do. I myself had nitrite rise to 5ppm in my current tank before, and yeah did not worry about it because I know that it was unlikely to rise higher for my aquarium.

So yes, one could kinda ignore nitrite during the cycle, if they kinda know that even though there is not quite enough nitrite-oxidizers yet, it will catch up and manage to consume nitrites before it ever hits a dangerous point.

But not everyone is too well-versed with all this, and I have seen newbies who had nitrite rise beyond 25ppm during their cycling process, which could arise from something as simple as accidentally dosing way too much ammonia, but having plenty of ammonia oxidation but not nitrite oxidation. Hence my personal recommendation, especially for newbies, is also to ensure nitrite reaches 0 within 24 hours. Just to be sure.
So I just learned if I have nitrites present then the nitrate test will be messed up. So, I don't know what my nitrate is then!
Nope. XD Once you test 0 nitrites you can test nitrates to see where it is truly at. Though, you don't know how much less than 20ppm nitrate you have, but at least you know it won't be higher than 20ppm. :3
 
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ReeferintheSky

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So with nitrites, it is non-toxic to marine fish unless it reaches really, really, really, REALLY high levels. Like, really high. Check this article out: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php. However, nitrite does not have to be massively high to start causing diseases. A study recommended to keep nitrite below 25ppm for ocellaris clownfish: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10499-015-9965-9.

So how is this all relevant? Well a lot of people would say it is so hard to hit such high levels of nitrite that it is nothing to worry about, and I think this is the case with most cycles. I am sure for a lot of people who are experienced, it is absolutely the case that they don't really need to worry about it and everything's still fine, since they know what to do. I myself had nitrite rise to 5ppm in my current tank before, and yeah did not worry about it because I know that it was unlikely to rise higher for my aquarium.

So yes, one could kinda ignore nitrite during the cycle, if they kinda know that even though there is not quite enough nitrite-oxidizers yet, it will catch up and manage to consume nitrites before it ever hits a dangerous point.

But not everyone is too well-versed with all this, and I have seen newbies who had nitrite rise beyond 25ppm during their cycling process, which could arise from something as simple as accidentally dosing way too much ammonia, but having plenty of ammonia oxidation but not nitrite oxidation. Hence my personal recommendation, especially for newbies, is also to ensure nitrite reaches 0 within 24 hours. Just to be sure.

Nope. XD Once you test 0 nitrites you can test nitrates to see where it is truly at. Though, you don't know how much less than 20ppm nitrate you have, but at least you know it won't be higher than 20ppm. :3
Thank you for the detailed response, you probably saved my fish and CUC! I'll wait until nitrites go to 0. So should I keep dosing 2 ppm ammonium chloride when ammonia goes down to 0?
 

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Thank you for the detailed response, you probably saved my fish and CUC! I'll wait until nitrites go to 0. So should I keep dosing 2 ppm ammonium chloride when ammonia goes down to 0?
Yeah, more specifically when nitrite has also gone down to 0. Here's my guide, which might help keep track with what's need to be done:
A GUIDE TO CYCLING V1.3.png
 
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Yeah, more specifically when nitrite has also gone down to 0. Here's my guide, which might help keep track with what's need to be done:
A GUIDE TO CYCLING V1.3.png
Thank you for taking the time to help me out. I have one question for clarification. So, I should only does ammonium chloride again once nitrite AND ammonia reaches 0 ppm? Even though ammonia is 0 ppm, I should not does ammonium chloride until nitrite reaches 0 ppm?

Thanks again!
 

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Thank you for taking the time to help me out. I have one question for clarification. So, I should only does ammonium chloride again once nitrite AND ammonia reaches 0 ppm? Even though ammonia is 0 ppm, I should not does ammonium chloride until nitrite reaches 0 ppm?

Thanks again!
Yes. My main concern is that nitrite-oxidizers grow more slowly than ammonia-oxidizers. So if one keeps dosing ammonia when ammonia reaches 0 but nitrite is still present, this could just keep on resulting in more nitrite generated by ammonia-oxidizers than consumed by nitrite-oxidizers, and so nitrite can just climbing. Most people don't fret about this because the expectation is that at some point the nitrite-oxidizers will catch up, but it is entirely possible that before they can catch up, nitrite can reach very high levels.

I had seen this before, where aquarists thought they have to dose ammonia everyday and ended up with lot's of nitrite, but also where people used bottled bac products that seems to contain ammonia-oxidizers that reproduced much faster than nitrite-oxidizers for whatever reason. Who knows, life is weird lol.
 
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Yes. My main concern is that nitrite-oxidizers grow more slowly than ammonia-oxidizers. So if one keeps dosing ammonia when ammonia reaches 0 but nitrite is still present, this could just keep on resulting in more nitrite generated by ammonia-oxidizers than consumed by nitrite-oxidizers, and so nitrite can just climbing. Most people don't fret about this because the expectation is that at some point the nitrite-oxidizers will catch up, but it is entirely possible that before they can catch up, nitrite can reach very high levels.

I had seen this before, where aquarists thought they have to dose ammonia everyday and ended up with lot's of nitrite, but also where people used bottled bac products that seems to contain ammonia-oxidizers that reproduced much faster than nitrite-oxidizers for whatever reason. Who knows, life is weird lol.
I'm wondering if I should do a water change to get rid of some of the nitrite as I have been dosing ammonium chloride everytime ammonia goes to 0 ppm.
 

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I'm wondering if I should do a water change to get rid of some of the nitrite as I have been dosing ammonium chloride everytime ammonia goes to 0 ppm.
You can if there is a lot. It is also fine to wait, ammonia-oxidizers can go for a while ammonia starved.
 

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Reefer there’s an important counter point to consider

you’re four times past the dates on the labels for both bottle bac brands used, and the second purchase of fritz wasn’t required.


it’s ok to wait a month anyway but why buy the bac then, a totally free unassisted cycle takes about that long

you paid for the quick legal start

its important to know that nitrite can’t rise to lethal levels in anyone’s cycle, Aze never mentions that not once case of nitrite toxicity in reefing has been documented, that’s why his links aren’t from cycling reef tanks. We input powerful bottle bac and or live rock.


do not test for nitrite at any phase in reefing and you won’t waste money, see this thread for proof. It’s using reef tanks


 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Some themes from that thread:

-every tank has a known start date before it’s even assembled then we test out the predictions. Dr Tim’s is ten day bac, your start date was ten days after setup, it wasn’t stalled and the Fritz wasn’t needed.

-nitrite has no bearing on any reef tank cycle and neither does nitrate, the old rules you read were designed at making you doubt and buy reinforcements, you can see they’re good at getting those ends.

-your main risk is fish disease totally unrelated to cycling, you need to be planning how to keep the fish alive as the bottle bac handled your cycle just fine.

-nobody can link for us here a single example of a failed reef tank cycle done this year or last, they’re not common. They’re relayed to you as common, though.


-notice how all examples given to you before that link above contained zero examples of reef tank cycles, yet that thread is 100% reef tank prediction dates and outcomes from reef tank cycles. We think refusing to be pinned down for a start date is a hallmark behavior of a cycle ump who has only cycled his own reef tank, once, but not any others.
 
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Some themes from that thread:

-every tank has a known start date before it’s even assembled then we test out the predictions. Dr Tim’s is ten day bac, your start date was ten days after setup, it wasn’t stalled and the Fritz wasn’t needed.

-nitrite has no bearing on any reef tank cycle and neither does nitrate, the old rules you read were designed at making you doubt and buy reinforcements, you can see they’re good at getting those ends.

-your main risk is fish disease totally unrelated to cycling, you need to be planning how to keep the fish alive as the bottle bac handled your cycle just fine.

-nobody can link for us here a single example of a failed reef tank cycle done this year or last, they’re not common. They’re relayed to you as common, though.


-notice how all examples given to you before that link above contained zero examples of reef tank cycles, yet that thread is 100% reef tank prediction dates and outcomes from reef tank cycles. We think refusing to be pinned down for a start date is a hallmark behavior of a cycle ump who has only cycled his own reef tank, once, but not any others.
Brandon I have to say - I have learned an incredible amount reading your posts. Thank you for being such an educator!
 

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