Flame angel acting weird after cooper

[thecommentr86]

I'm very sorry about your fish. From what I understand, Salifert isn't recommended for testing chelated copper, as it can't safely detect it. The Hanna checker is the only accurate option.

Source: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-test-kits.257924/

I also don't think a 10g tank is large enough for all three fish, unless you're really testing for ammonia every day. There don't seem to be many hiding places from the video either.

I did a water change before adding the copper tested ammonia yesterday before and after.

I agree the 10g is small but they had been in QT for 2 weeks and had 0 fighting, 0 nips the two angels even bonded as they slept in the same PVC pipe.

Literally as soon as I added the copper in the tank all the fish started to abosutlty spazz the **** out and shake their heads uncountable and a simple google search said it was the copper poisoning / bothering the gills.

I had an airstone so oxygen lack wasn’t the case either

 

[thecommentr86]

I understand you're upset, but copper is safe when administered properly.

There's something at play here that we just aren't getting.

Strongly disagree I get your perspective but from my perspective fish fine before copper, had them in QT for 2 weeks add copper die within 8 hours like guys cmon. No fighting and hell I feed them before the copper and they were all super aggressive eaters.

Add copper, fish becomes lethargic and dies

 

[thecommentr86]

I understand you're upset, but copper is safe when administered properly.

There's something at play here that we just aren't getting.

I’ll probably start a thread on my experience with copper the help other reefers. A die off this fast doesn’t occur unless something poisons the fish.

I also did lower the copper with a water change at one point they acted better, was told no you need to add it back I bc/ more and I listened and then they again freaked out. Unless my copper power is a bad batch it killed my fish than I spent a lot of money and time on and I should of went with my gut

 

[christinna77]

I did a water change before adding the copper tested ammonia yesterday before and after.

I agree the 10g is small but they had been in QT for 2 weeks and had 0 fighting, 0 nips the two angels even bonded as they slept in the same PVC pipe.

Literally as soon as I added the copper in the tank all the fish started to abosutlty spazz the **** out and shake their heads uncountable and a simple google search said it was the copper poisoning / bothering the gills.

I had an airstone so oxygen lack wasn’t the case either

How did you pour it in? Is it possible there was a concentrated spike in one area of the tank for a few moments? I always turn my wavemaker up to max and pour it directly in front of it to prevent that from happening.

I've used Copper Power many times and haven't had a single adverse reaction. I also know several vendors who quarantine hundreds of different fish all the time and dose it up to 2.8 ppm without any issues. So either the dosage wasn't correctly measured, Salifert test was giving an inaccurate reading or you received a bad batch.

One more question, did you dose the quarantine tank with anything else prior to copper? Any ammonia reducing agents (although Prime claims to be safe with chelated copper), any other medications at all?

 

[TylerHaworth]

Again, I understand you're upset, but thousands upon thousands of people use copper to QT/treat their fish with great success, repeatability, and reliability. It's not up for debate just because you lost your fish.

Something else is up, full stop.

 

[thecommentr86]

How did you pour it in? Is it possible there was a concentrated spike in one area of the tank for a few moments? I always turn my wavemaker up to max and pour it directly in front of it to prevent that from happening.

I've used Copper Power many times and haven't had a single adverse reaction. I also know several vendors who quarantine hundreds of different fish all the time and dose it up to 2.8 ppm without any issues. So either the dosage wasn't correctly measured, Salifert test was giving an inaccurate reading or you received a bad batch.

One more question, did you dose the quarantine tank with anything else prior to copper? Any ammonia reducing agents (although Prime claims to be safe with chelated copper), any other medications at all?

Over the top spread it out then took my turkey baster and (only ever used on this tank) and swirled the water around to make sure I didn’t have a concentrated spot. Apart from prime for the declorination and only a couple drops as per its instructions nothing else added.

Google and every AI I asked said it was probably copper to as I uploaded a video you can see the flame angel having a seizure basically and again it did not do that before the copper power was added.

I called my LFS he said he’s shocked but also agreed it sounds like copper did them in not even the minor velvet as he said for it to be that fast it must of been a chemical especially since the non infected fish also died

Unless the copper killed all the Beneficial bacteria but my ammonia read 0

I added a video and again NO they did not do the twitch before a copper intact these angels bonded and slept in the same PVC pipe and never nipped at each other. That’s been brought up twice so I want to make it clear that DID NOT occur before the copper power

 

[christinna77]

Over the top spread it out then took my turkey baster and (only ever used on this tank) and swirled the water around to make sure I didn’t have a concentrated spot. Apart from prime for the declorination and only a couple drops as per its instructions nothing else added.

Google and every AI I asked said it was probably copper to as I uploaded a video you can see the flame angel having a seizure basically and again it did not do that before the copper power was added.

I called my LFS he said he’s shocked but also agreed it sounds like copper did them in not even the minor velvet as he said for it to be that fast it must of been a chemical especially since the non infected fish also died

Unless the copper killed all the Beneficial bacteria but my ammonia read 0

I added a video and again NO they did not do the twitch before a copper intact these angels bonded and slept in the same PVC pipe and never nipped at each other. That’s been brought up twice so I want to make it clear that DID NOT occur before the copper power

If it was really copper poisoning, then you must've overdosed it by a lot.

I also wonder if Prime could've played a role. It's supposedly safe to use with chelated copper, but I'm not sure whether that claim has ever been properly tested...

 

[LeftyReefer]

I got it up to the 2.5 before going to bed woke up and were fish in the QT died apart from the coral beauty. I will never use copper again….this has to be the worry medication ever. Every fish was fine before the copper even the ones with velvet on them

Calm down. Your fish literally had ich and velvet and you blame the copper for killing them?!?
more than likely it's the fact that it took too long to get them into copper. the diseases had progressed too far by the time you got them into copper and then you under-dosed the copper so it didn't help them.

your fish were showing symptoms before you started copper. You're fish died of disease, not from copper toxicity. That is unless you didn't measure your copper doses correctly for the given water volume.

We know you are upset, but don't blame the copper in this case. You had sick fish from the start. Copper wasn't the cause.

 

[thecommentr86]

Calm down. Your fish literally had ich and velvet and you blame the copper for killing them?!?
more than likely it's the fact that it took too long to get them into copper. the diseases had progressed too far by the time you got them into copper and then you under-dosed the copper so it didn't help them.

your fish were showing symptoms before you started copper. You're fish died of disease, not from copper toxicity. That is unless you didn't measure your copper doses correctly for the given water volume.

We know you are upset, but don't blame the copper in this case. You had sick fish from the start. Copper wasn't the cause.

I called up a marine biologist. It was the copper and prime. When I told her my scenario she stated a common mistake with any form of copper is adding prime. Apprently prime and copper when mixed together causes a chemical reaction that will kill fish almost instantly in a matter of 30 minutes to an hours. My coral beauty just toughed it out until the prime dissipated from the water.

They stated the velvet wouldn’t act that fast as I sent them pictures of the fish before and after death and the velvet was in its starting stages and most of the fish didn’t have the velvet yet so it couldn’t be that combined with some of the fish dying not having it or it being so minor it wasn’t visible.

So now we know she said under no circumstances should copper of any kind and prime be mixed. Either add the prime a day before then dose the copper or don’t do a water change before copper do it a day before.

The video I sent of the flame confirmed to her it was chemcical toxicity combined with the acute timeline. No way would the velvet act that fast and cause a tank wipeout in that short of a timeframe of 8 hours.

So this is a PSA for everybody never combine copper and prime especially prime in a larger dose that they recommend for reduced stress or to right ammonia

Edit: I know on this forum people say copper power is safe with prime but if a marine biologist strongly disagrees I’m gonna listen to them and not the company that makes the product. It’s just a timeline of prime -> a day passes -> add copper power. Especially if prime is slightly overused it’s a death sentence for most fish.

Edit 2: spoke to another person fish store owner I now well. Said the same thing prime and any copper including copper power do not mix well what so ever and in all locations he owns they never use prime on QT tanks for that reason

 

[thecommentr86]

If it was really copper poisoning, then you must've overdosed it by a lot.

I also wonder if Prime could've played a role. It's supposedly safe to use with chelated copper, but I'm not sure whether that claim has ever been properly tested...

You got it spot on it was the prime mixed with the copper I spoke to a marine bioglist it’s a common mistake in the hobby but not talked about enough prime and copper mix incredibly poorly.

 

[MnFish1]

I got it up to the 2.5 before going to bed woke up and were fish in the QT died apart from the coral beauty. I will never use copper again….this has to be the worry medication ever. Every fish was fine before the copper even the ones with velvet on them I will not be ever using copper power in 10000 years and wouldn’t recommend it for others and just try the TTM

just remember that TTM works fine (with a lot of stress on the fish) for Ich, not as easy for velvet and several other parasites. Best of luck. I think it's less likely copper problem than a fish problem.

 

[thecommentr86]

Yea i just gave an update copper power or any copper and prime still despite what prime says dont mix well. All the LFS I’ve called around me said the same and my marine biologist contact echoed the same thing.

So it wasn’t the copper itself it was the copper and prime mixing

just remember that TTM works fine (with a lot of stress on the fish) for Ich, not as easy for velvet and several other parasites. Best of luck. I think it's less likely copper problem than a fish problem.

 

[MnFish1]

You got it spot on it was the prime mixed with the copper I spoke to a marine bioglist it’s a common mistake in the hobby but not talked about enough prime and copper mix incredibly poorly.

But, the problem is not the copper, its (and I don't mean to be mean here) the problem is copper should not be used with Prime- and it's widely known that you cant use prime with Copper. Then there is another site that claims the there are types of copper safe with prime.

 

[christinna77]

I found the thread from Humblefish, where he himself reportedly tested using copper power and prime together multiple times in a row with no negative effects: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/psa-prime-safe-to-use-with-copper-power.653521/, so I'm still not sure if this was indeed the problem, unless overdosed.

 

[thecommentr86]

I get that but if a marine biologist confirms that to be the case plus every LFS I called refuses to fix to the two and the marine biologist was also given photo and video to review and claims it was chemical toxicity by mixing I mean I’m just saying it lines up. I put the ammount I dosed in my tank which was stated to be just be at / below therapeutic levels and again.

I’ll take the word of a marine biologist and now 3 LFS stores who all swear to never mix prime with any copper including copper power. So you were right yes it’s not copper itself it’s copper power mixed with prime. Some people may have a different experience but mine obviously wasn’t and again I got medical advice but a trained individual which I will prioritize.

It’s like getting advice on nutritional advice from a tiktoker or a nutritionist who are you listening to.

Also that thread is why I did use prime with copper power . Again I’m stating my experience and the knowledge of a MARINE biologist who does saltwater and my 3 LFS who all say the same thing. I’ll take that.

The videos I shared all also states clearly show chemical toxicity and everyone swears copper power is safe even they did but everyone also called prime doesn’t mix well with ANY COPPER with two of them saying again it’s marketing.

They don’t gain anything from lying to me they just lose a sale on prime products for a QT tank…

 

[thecommentr86]

I agree with you but it’s been stated copper power and prime can be mixed on these forums and I just found out from multiple sources including a marine biologist this is false especially if prime is used in excess / for stress / ammonia relief.

I’m just sharing this info so people don’t go through it so your correct it wasn’t the copper power it was copper power and prime mixing and it ain’t safe

But, the problem is not the copper, its (and I don't mean to be mean here) the problem is copper should not be used with Prime- and it's widely known that you cant use prime with Copper. Then there is another site that claims the there are types of copper safe with prime.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I got it up to the 2.5 before going to bed woke up and were fish in the QT died apart from the coral beauty. I will never use copper again….this has to be the worry medication ever. Every fish was fine before the copper even the ones with velvet on them I will not be ever using copper power in 10000 years and wouldn’t recommend it for others and just try the TTM

Just to offer a counter argument - I've used amine-chelated copper on those species and have never had an issue, and that from is a large data set (dozens of those two species over decades), not a one time issue. Ionic copper can harm Centropyge angels, but the symptoms are different - the fish turn pale and die if the copper is raised too quickly. Even then, I used to use ionic copper for many years before I switched to amine-chelated copper, but only have one instance where a flame angel died from suspected copper toxicity.

Copper is the preferred medication for ich or velvet, virtually all public aquariums (my own included) use it as the go-to treatment, both for treating active disease, as well as a preventative/quarantine for new fish.

There are options; hyposalinity works for ich, but not for velvet. Chloroquine works for both, but can be tricky to use (https://reefs.com/magazine/aquarium-fish-chloroquine-a-new-drug-for-treating-fish-diseases/). TTM only works for ich, unless you modify it with peroxide dips, and can cause excessive stress on the fish.

 

[thecommentr86]

I feel like nobody is reading my follow up posts lol. I agree as I’ve stated it wasn’t the copper it was copper power and prime mixing which has been stated to be safe but isn’t after speaking to a marine biologist I know and 3 LFSs.

So I was half right it was the copper power but not its fault but mixing with prime which prime says it’s safe it’s not

Just to offer a counter argument - I've used amine-chelated copper on those species and have never had an issue, and that from is a large data set (dozens of those two species over decades), not a one time issue. Ionic copper can harm Centropyge angels, but the symptoms are different - the fish turn pale and die if the copper is raised too quickly. Even then, I used to use ionic copper for many years before I switched to amine-chelated copper, but only have one instance where a flame angel died from suspected copper toxicity.

Copper is the preferred medication for ich or velvet, virtually all public aquariums (my own included) use it as the go-to treatment, both for treating active disease, as well as a preventative/quarantine for new fish.

There are options; hyposalinity works for ich, but not for velvet. Chloroquine works for both, but can be tricky to use (https://reefs.com/magazine/aquarium-fish-chloroquine-a-new-drug-for-treating-fish-diseases/). TTM only works for ich, unless you modify it with peroxide dips, and can cause excessive stress on the fish.

 

[christinna77]

I get that but if a marine biologist confirms that to be the case plus every LFS I called refuses to fix to the two and the marine biologist was also given photo and video to review and claims it was chemical toxicity by mixing I mean I’m just saying it lines up. I put the ammount I dosed in my tank which was stated to be just be at / below therapeutic levels and again.

I’ll take the word of a marine biologist and now 3 LFS stores who all swear to never mix prime with any copper including copper power. So you were right yes it’s not copper itself it’s copper power mixed with prime. Some people may have a different experience but mine obviously wasn’t and again I got medical advice but a trained individual which I will prioritize.

It’s like getting advice on nutritional advice from a tiktoker or a nutritionist who are you listening to.

Also that thread is why I did use prime with copper power . Again I’m stating my experience and the knowledge of a MARINE biologist who does saltwater and my 3 LFS who all say the same thing. I’ll take that.

The videos I shared all also states clearly show chemical toxicity and everyone swears copper power is safe even they did but everyone also called prime doesn’t mix well with ANY COPPER with two of them saying again it’s marketing.

They don’t gain anything from lying to me they just lose a sale on prime products for a QT tank…

Perhaps you're not aware of who Humblefish is. He's not just some random person. He's widely considered one of the leading experts in fish disease and quarantine with decades of experience, similar to Jay and others in the hobby. So, I wouldn't just dismiss his findings.

That said, I believe both Jay and Randy previously mentioned that copper power still contains some amines in them, which could potentially lead to toxicity when mixed with Prime. It would be interesting to do some more testing on this subject with different doses of Copper Power/Prime, so we can know for sure...

Personally, I avoid mixing those two.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I feel like nobody is reading my follow up posts lol. I agree as I’ve stated it wasn’t the copper it was copper power and prime mixing which has been stated to be safe but isn’t after speaking to a marine biologist I know and 3 LFSs.

So I was half right it was the copper power but not its fault but mixing with prime which prime says it’s safe it’s not

AH! I totally missed that you had combined Prime with Copper Power!

This is a potential issues that goes way underreported - any reducing agent, (Prime, dechlor, formalin, ammonia neutralizers, etc.) have the possibility of breaking the amine-copper bond, releasing free copper, that is then very toxic. The trouble is, there is no way to test this. The copper test kits also break the amine-copper bond and measures the total copper, and that amount is the same - bonded or free, but it is the free copper that is toxic!

Side note: I never used reducing agents with any copper products. That means my experience never has that variable added in to the equation.

Sorry that this happened to your fish!