Frozen vs. Pellet Foods

I know you think you have provided them, but on that we disagree.
After all I submitted all I have left to do is to stand on my head and spit wooden nickels.
Also remember, it is not my job for you to believe me as I have nothing to prove. 😎
 
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Yes I was joking .. I probably did feed it 20 years ago though.
John Candy Reaction GIF
 
Freeze dried anyone?

I have fed it to my fish. Some like it some don’t.

Freeze-dried food lasts 15–25 years and retains up to 97% of nutrients.
Dehydrated food lasts 5–10 years and retains about 60–80% of nutrients

Also, in dry frozen foods it can be depending on what methods are used, being there are different methods for dry freezing to.

A good article to read.

https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3417/14/20/9183


Over all better than most ways to get food preserved. But no matter how it’s done nutritional value will still be lost.
 
You should also read about the conditions those slaves lived in and what they were fed and the "quality" of the little water they received.


Remember, the fish comes to us from the sea with it's full complement of gut bacteria still in it. That is until we quarantine it and feed it something it is not meant to eat.


We all get our fish through those same means, but some of us never have issues with any diseases. I am talking decades, not years, why is that?

For some of us, mostly old timers, diseases is a non issue and we only see it on these forums about diseases. We come on here because we find it interesting. 😎

My philosophy is not to cure anything, it's to not have to cure anything in the first place. I don't have a hospital tank or any medications. 😊


This is not a bad diet.


I have seen Ocean Sunfish right out the back of my house in the Long Island Sound. They often do have birds on them eating, I assume parasites.
Beautiful and large fish. They are actually the largest bony fish in the sea. 😀


I’ll share some pics…. Of LFS fish I have seen over some time.

Initially this fish had way more cones that this picture shows, also it was put I the LFS tank with copper. Then it cleared up. But it was bad when it was first put in the tank. Had it been kept in a non copper tank, it would have been toast sadly.

IMG_1459.jpeg



This does not happen over night or within a week. This is weeks of being in a tank not fed, what chance do they stand with people that don’t even know for example that R2R exists and they can get the info needed to bring such fish back to health. And I’m willing to say these fish would have met dooms end, but I bought all three, one of the three got killed by my purple sadly. It happened over night with a slash to the gill plate. Literally took a chuck out of the gill plate and gills insane! But the smaller and larger once are fat piggies in my tank.
IMG_8265.jpeg




Might as well call this guy brother ich. I don’t know what happened to this fish in the end. But it was full of ich, and willing to bet someone did buy it. And it either died in the customers tank or someone figured out how to give it QT. How does a fish like this, go into a tank and be expected to make it? Some by the time you see this don’t even eat well any longer. Got a black cap basslet for my brother like this. But after a good ol few weeks in QT he cleared up and is now eating again. Should have done some documenting pics, but it would only hid in the tank.

IMG_1291.jpeg




This one sadly didn’t make it. The price they were asking for it was too steep to spend saving it. And as it was, they didn’t even budge on price, or say just take it! Sadly this was captain obvious when it comes to diseases, and many would understand that it’s not worth buying to deal with brook.


IMG_1647.png




Another specimen just full of ich to say the least, it was sold not long after this pic. Do you think the sales person told the customer, oh yea comes with a side of ich? And maybe more? I would say a hard pass on this question haha.

IMG_1462.jpeg




And another…. Could go on and on with pics like this.

IMG_1457.jpeg





What I’m trying to point out, is that the supply chain is getting more and more prevalent with diseases. Then they set in the LFS tanks and are sold to people that don’t know. Because the story in full, as I typed it out earlier, is people are now getting into this hobby because of a video on YT or some social media post a friend or someone else posted and they saw it. Then wanted said Nemo, let’s not forget the dreaded Nemo! Still head parents and kids buying fish because of this movie. And some places that have fish like in these pics I’m posting. Only to have them die possibly. Not many know what you know Paul! And you’re a man of knowledge when it comes to your ways. But with what I now have accumulated as knowledge, and having QT’ed all my fish that survived just fine, mine will last just as long, as long as I keep my feeding method I posted above in the long post.


About a couple weeks ago, a kid bought a few fish only to come back week later in need of copper. The issues is once one of these disease get a hold of fish this bad you’re not saying it by feeding! Most of the time they even stop eating. And blue lights sure do not help in visibly seeing disease outbreak on fish many times. By the time you see it, it’s too late.

I’m willing to bet, the fish that are being collected sure do not come in being fed what your or I would feed them, to keep them healthy. LFS’s don’t feed them enough or what is proper to keep them healthy. It’s a money game. So how does a fishes gut healthy even come close to helping it, if it’s not eating properly for weeks on in, till it’s sold.

And as @Randy Holmes-Farley stared, these fish are also eating many things that we have in our tanks. But….. some are clean freaks when it comes to tanks and the first sight of any kind of algae is flame throwered out of the tank. I don’t mind the algae because one of the many rascals I keep will end up eating it. And that in it if it’s self is gut bacteria that they are feeding from the tank on their own.


I see it as if you don’t QT, and your system works keep doing that, but if your fish get infected to the point of most of the pics you see here, it is your duty to do your best and get that fish on the healing path, or death would be imminent.
 
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I’ll share some pics…. Of LFS fish I have seen over some time.

Initially this fish had way more cones that this picture shows, also it was put I the LFS tank with copper. Then it cleared up. But it was bad when it was first put in the tank. Had it been kept in a non copper tank, it would have been toast sadly.

IMG_1459.jpeg



This does not happen over night or within a week. This is weeks of being in a tank not fed, what chance do they stand with people that don’t even know for example that R2R exists and they can get the info needed to bring such fish back to health. And I’m willing to say these fish would have met dooms end, but I bought all three, one of the three got killed by my purple sadly. It happened over night with a slash to the gill plate. Literally took a chuck out of the gill plate and gills insane! But the smaller and larger once are fat piggies in my tank.
IMG_8265.jpeg




Might as well call this guy brother ich. I don’t know what happened to this fish in the end. But it was full of ich, and willing to bet someone did buy it. And it either died in the customers tank or someone figured out how to give it QT. How does a fish like this, go into a tank and be expected to make it? Some by the time you see this don’t even eat well any longer. Got a black cap basslet for my brother like this. But after a good ol few weeks in QT he cleared up and is now eating again. Should have done some documenting pics, but it would only hid in the tank.

IMG_1291.jpeg




This one sadly didn’t make it. The price they were asking for it was too steep to spend saving it. And as it was, they didn’t even budge on price, or say just take it! Sadly this was captain obvious when it comes to diseases, and many would understand that it’s not worth buying to deal with brook.


IMG_1647.png




Another specimen just full of ich to say the least, it was sold not long after this pic. Do you think the sales person told the customer, oh yea comes with a side of ich? And maybe more? I would say a hard pass on this question haha.

IMG_1462.jpeg




And another…. Could go on and on with pics like this.

IMG_1457.jpeg





What I’m trying to point out, is that the supply chain is getting more and more prevalent with diseases. Then they set in the LFS tanks and are sold to people that don’t know. Because the story in full, as I typed it out earlier, is people are now getting into this hobby because of a video on YT or some social media post a friend or someone else posted and they saw it. Then wanted said Nemo, let’s not forget the dreaded Nemo! Still head parents and kids buying fish because of this movie. And some places that have fish like in these pics I’m posting. Only to have them die possibly. Not many know what you know Paul! And you’re a man of knowledge when it comes to your ways. But with what I now have accumulated as knowledge, and having QT’ed all my fish that survived just fine, mine will last just as long, as long as I keep my feeding method I posted above in the long post.


About a couple weeks ago, a kid bought a few fish only to come back week later in need of copper. The issues is once one of these disease get a hold of fish this bad you’re not saying it by feeding! Most of the time they even stop eating. And blue lights sure do not help in visibly seeing disease outbreak on fish many times. By the time you see it, it’s too late.

I’m willing to bet, the fish that are being collected sure do not come in being fed what your or I would feed them, to keep them healthy. LFS’s don’t feed them enough or what is proper to keep them healthy. It’s a money game. So how does a fishes gut healthy even come close to helping it, if it’s not eating properly for weeks on in, till it’s sold.

And as @Randy Holmes-Farley stared, these fish are also eating many things that we have I our tanks. But….. some are clean freaks when it comes to tanks and the first sight of any kind of algae is flame throwered out of the tank. I don’t mind the algae because one of the many rascals I keep will end up eating it. And that in it if it’s self is gut bacteria that they are feeding from the tank on their own.


I see it as if you don’t QT, and your system works keep doing that, but if your fish get infected to the point of most of the pics you see here, it is your duty to do your best and get that fish on the healing path, or death would be imminent.
Frozen then?
 
Frozen then?

I feed a mix personally. Dry food does have its benefits if you ask me. You can’t take away from the fact it does contain vitamins, and amino acids. But frozen, also has its place, as does, in my case, black worms.

Had my brothers maroon, stopped eating. Healthier than a ox! Didn’t care about pellets frozen, or even life brine shrimp. So I went to the LFS near me. Got black worms as a last resort. And ended up being the ticket that brought her back. And it’s now doing very well, and eats super aggressive!

Had the same thing take place with my maroon as well, ended up being brine that got her to eat.

In another case I ended up tube feeding the fish directly to bring it back to life. All fish where Healthy on the outside, no sings of anything. Different tanks, tank mates for all listed here in this post. If it were parasitic I’m sure the others would have contracted the same parasite. Or at least one other fish out of the few in all tanks. But nothing!

Everything has its place and it can all methods can work just fine if properly administered. Eduction is key.
 
I feed a mix personally. Dry food does have its benefits if you ask me. You can’t take away from the fact it does contain vitamins, and amino acids. But frozen, also has its place, as does, in my case, black worms.

Had my brothers maroon, stopped eating. Healthier than a ox! Didn’t care about pellets frozen, or even life brine shrimp. So I went to the LFS near me. Got black worms as a last resort. And ended up being the ticket that brought her back. And it’s now doing very well, and eats super aggressive!

Had the same thing take place with my maroon as well, ended up being brine that got her to eat.

In another case I ended up tube feeding the fish directly to bring it back to life. All fish where Healthy on the outside, no sings of anything. Different tanks, tank mates for all listed here in this post. If it were parasitic I’m sure the others would have contracted the same parasite. Or at least one other fish out of the few in all tanks. But nothing!

Everything has its place and it can all methods can work just fine if properly administered. Eduction is key.
Thank you for that concise answer. I agree. .
 
Not many know what you know Paul! And you’re a man of knowledge when it comes to your ways. But with what I now have accumulated as knowledge, and having QT’ed all my fish that survived just fine, mine will last just as long, as long as I keep my feeding method I posted above in the long post.
Winxp, I gained that knowledge by trial and error over many years. My fish also used to get sick until I learned the secret and now, as I said, disease is a non issue and my fish never get sick. Like never.

Of course they may get a non-communicable disease like some sort of neurological problem. I recently lost a Copperband to that and I posted it.

He was pretty old, maybe 10, I don't remember, but you can see him here. He can't see the food right in front of him and constantly missed his mouth with it, so he gave up eating. Neurological conditions in fish and Humans you can't fix.



Here he is before this illness



The sick fish you posted, I would never buy a fish like that and would never allow my fish to get like that. It just can't happen to an immune fish kept naturally and eating the correct food along with the correct gut bacteria. Not "regular" bacteria that covers everything, I mean specifically gut bacteria that only comes from the guts of living creatures. That controls immunity. (I'm actually tired of saying that and don't know why I am still on this thread saying the same thing over and over again) 😳

We also must limit stress as much as we can and I have written volumes on that.

It is very simple and practically free to keep fish in such a condition. I am an electrician and I can easily do it with no special tanks for observation, hospital or medications. They just live out their lifespan with very little help from me.

I have and can put any fish in my tank with any disease, and the other fish will be fine.

If my tank crashes now, I will call it a success, but if I have to keep my fish healthy through un-natural means and medications, I call that a complete failure. 😎
 
It's interesting that a thread on pellets vs frozen has turned into an ich discussion. It seems the general consensus is that we all feed a combination of both. I also want to point out that none of us here are Ichthyologists or could even be considered "experts" in the field of fish nutrition, we are experienced hobbyists at best, some more than others. As far as I know, Jay Hemdal could be considered an "expert" and an "authority" on the subject but he has not participated in this thread yet. Here on R2R I've yet to see really anyone with a tank that has some truly old fish, something verifiable, something with photo documentation and progression photos, and I'm not talking a 5 year old fish I'm talking someone who's maintained their imperator angel or sohal tang for a decade or more, with casual chit chat about what they eat. It's easy to hypothesize that frozen foods are better for the fish than pellets as it does make sense, however with a lack of long term success documentation it comes down to personal preference. As far as disease goes, I think we can all agree that a healthy well fed fish is better suited to deal with disease than one that has been neglected and not well cared for. Was it a fishes gut biome that allowed it to stay parasite free well into it's adult years or did it's keeper's husbandry contribute more to that? Or a little of both? I don't think making one or the other the "rule" or offering it as "fact" is the right thing to do, some of the casual readers here are easily influenced one way or the other (yes really).

With that said, does anyone have a copy of Noga's book? If you know, you know. I don't currently have a copy but it's on my want list, it's pretty spendy.

Fwiw, this has been a great discussion.

#jayhemdal
 
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After all I submitted all I have left to do is to stand on my head and spit wooden nickels.
Also remember, it is not my job for you to believe me as I have nothing to prove. 😎

Or….

Show that if you did your entire method and used qt fish, the results would be worse.

Show that if you did your entire method and used dry fish food, the results would be worse.

Etc.

The ONLY way to know if each aspect of the method is actually needed is to try not using each one, one at a time.

Sure, you have nothing to prove to anyone, but also have not proven that each aspect is needed or even useful.
 
The sick fish you posted, I would never buy a fish like that and would never allow my fish to get like that. It just can't happen to an immune fish kept naturally and eating the correct food along with the correct gut bacteria. Not "regular" bacteria that covers everything, I mean specifically gut bacteria that only comes from the guts of living creatures. That controls immunity. (I'm actually tired of saying that and don't know why I am still on this thread saying the same thing over and over again) 😳


Correct, what are pods? I actually dose many pods in my tanks. Have to do it at night during the day not many would survive my fish love eating the big ones haha. Im a fan of crazy creatures, especially big ones moving around at night doing their thing. 😉👍🏽


For wrasses (that do feed on them) bristle worms are a good addition. But many once again kick them out of the tank. They are my number 1 favorite in tanks haha!
 
The sick fish you posted, I would never buy a fish like that and would never allow my fish to get like that. It just can't happen to an immune fish kept naturally and eating the correct food along with the correct gut bacteria. Not "regular" bacteria that covers everything, I mean specifically gut bacteria that only comes from the guts of living creatures. That controls immunity. (I'm actually tired of saying that and don't know why I am still on this thread saying the same thing over and over again)

I have and can put any fish in my tank with any disease, and the other fish will be fine.
I've got no beef with you Paul, I respect your decades of wisdom on the subject.

It's these statements that you make with such authority that some of us have a problem with. We're not even saying its a bunch of bull, your methods probably have some merit, it's the delivery that's flawed.

You said "I have and can put any fish in my tank with any disease, and the other fish will be fine." is a bold statement to make. Marine Velvet would likely kill all of your fish in 7 days. According to the "experts" there's no immunity to that, QT to remove the pathogen from the fish is the only prevention. I find it obvious to me why fish in the ocean don't die from velvet, and I don't see it as being from their "immunity" to it.

I made a statement in a previous post that my fish never have ich spots on them, I made no other claim as to why other than a good healthy environment. My fish would not survive a velvet outbreak and I'm not going to pretend they would. My fish may or may not survive a heavy outbreak of ich, I don't know I've never had one occur, I've contributed that to my husbandry practices, but perhaps there is not ich present in my tank?
 
It's interesting that a thread on pellets vs frozen has turned into an ich discussion. It seems the general consensus is that we all feed a combination of both. I also want to point out that none of us here are Ichthyologists or could even be considered "experts" in the field of fish nutrition, we are experienced hobbyists at best, some more than others. As far as I know, Jay Hemdal could be considered an "expert" and an "authority" on the subject but he has not participated in this thread yet. Here on R2R I've yet to see really anyone with a tank that has some truly old fish, something verifiable, something with photo documentation and progression photos, and I'm not talking a 5 year old fish I'm talking someone who's maintained their imperator angel or sohal tang for a decade or more, with casual chit chat about what they eat. It's easy to hypothesize that frozen foods are better for the fish than pellets as it does make sense, however with a lack of long term success documentation it comes down to personal preference. As far as disease goes, I think we can all agree that a healthy well fed fish is better suited to deal with disease than one that has been neglected and not well cared for. Was it a fishes gut biome that allowed it to stay parasite free well into it's adult years or did it's keeper's husbandry contribute more to that? Or a little of both? I don't think making one or the other the "rule" or offering it as "fact" is the right thing to do, some of the casual readers here are easily influenced one way or the other (yes really).

With that said, does anyone have a copy of Noga's book? If you know, you know. I don't currently have a copy but it's on my want list, it's pretty spendy.

Fwiw, this has been a great discussion.

#jayhemdal

Isn’t food part of the circle of life that feeds the immune system? And to say that disease then does not have a part of the discussion would make this subject a simple thread of what people use to feed fish. Food goes beyond just oh we are feeding our pets. Then the next question is why? Thus the reason why some of the replies have been posted. Food and why it’s fed deepens the discussion. Nothing wrong with that. And it’s been a civil back and forth if you ask me. I’m also seeing different view points and that is good thing. 🤙🏽
 
I've got no beef with you Paul, I respect your decades of wisdom on the subject.

It's these statements that you make with such authority that some of us have a problem with. We're not even saying its a bunch of bull, your methods probably have some merit, it's the delivery that's flawed.

You said "I have and can put any fish in my tank with any disease, and the other fish will be fine." is a bold statement to make. Marine Velvet would likely kill all of your fish in 7 days. According to the "experts" there's no immunity to that, QT to remove the pathogen from the fish is the only prevention. I find it obvious to me why fish in the ocean don't die from velvet, and I don't see it as being from their "immunity" to it.

I made a statement in a previous post that my fish never have ich spots on them, I made no other claim as to why other than a good healthy environment. My fish would not survive a velvet outbreak and I'm not going to pretend they would. My fish may or may not survive a heavy outbreak of ich, I don't know I've never had one occur, I've contributed that to my husbandry practices, but perhaps there is not ich present in my tank?

I can say with certainty that beyond a year ich will not survive without a host. So if your fish don’t have ich is it in tank? I would say possibly not. Now if you see spots here and there you know it’s in tank. I don’t see how not seeing spots, which is the evidence of ich, one can say it’s there after a year.

Had this talk with Jay about where does the disease go if you’re not seeing any fish show any signs of ich? I would venture to say dead. And Jay agreed to that.

I will also venture to say good food practice/aquarium husbandry is good for all capes of fish keeping.
 
Realistically until an affordable, reliable method of feeding frozen while away from the aquarium is developed most of us will have to use dry while we're at work on vacation etc anyway. I love feeding local seafood but I can't always be home to do so. Even if frozen was proven to be better it wouldn't solve that logistical issue.
 
I can say with certainty that beyond a year ich will not survive without a host. So if your fish don’t have ich is it in tank? I would say possibly not. Now if you see spots here and there you know it’s in tank. I don’t see how not seeing spots, which is the evidence of ich, one can say it’s there after a year.

Had this talk with Jay about where does the disease go if you’re not seeing any fish show any signs of ich? I would venture to say dead. And Jay agreed to that.

I will also venture to say good food practice/aquarium husbandry is good for all capes of fish keeping.
I'm no fish disease expert, but I've "heard" that ich can lie dormant for long periods of time and resurface years later. I dunno. I tagged Jay lets see if he can find the time to give us his thoughts on ich dormancy.

I don't think any of us are debating the benefits of good nutrition, however some of the claims made are unsubstantiated. As I said this is a hobbyist discussion, our comments are based on acecdotal evidence, but that has to have some merit right?
 
Realistically until an affordable, reliable method of feeding frozen while away from the aquarium is developed most of us will have to use dry while we're at work on vacation etc anyway. I love feeding local seafood but I can't always be home to do so. Even if frozen was proven to be better it wouldn't solve that logistical issue.

I ended up deciding to use my AF4 frozen food feeder. It works enough for getting my fish frozen or even fresh food in the mix while I’m away.
 
Realistically until an affordable, reliable method of feeding frozen while away from the aquarium is developed most of us will have to use dry while we're at work on vacation etc anyway. I love feeding local seafood but I can't always be home to do so. Even if frozen was proven to be better it wouldn't solve that logistical issue.
Nutramar from Quality Marine is supposed to be a good product. I have some I got at RAP a few years ago that my bigger fish will readily eat.
 

IF YOU HAD TO OPERATE EVERYTHING ELSE MANUALLY, WHICH AUTOMATED SYSTEM WOULD YOU KEEP?

  • Auto top-off

    Votes: 54 58.7%
  • Automated dosing

    Votes: 6 6.5%
  • Mechanical filtration / roller filter

    Votes: 4 4.3%
  • Automated water testing

    Votes: 3 3.3%
  • Automatic feeding

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • Lighting schedule

    Votes: 16 17.4%
  • Controller and remote monitoring

    Votes: 3 3.3%
  • Leak detection and emergency shutoff

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • Automatic water changes

    Votes: 3 3.3%
  • None. I prefer to operate everything manually

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Something else (explain in the comments)

    Votes: 1 1.1%
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