Getting frustrated with the PH

[Jonify]

Sorry. I guess we both skimmed over it and missed some parts.

"To date, only one study has manipulated pH over a diurnal cycle mimicking ecologically relevant pH shifts (daytime pH = 8.00, night-time pH = 7.77) to examine short-term (3–6 day) effects on coral recruits [20]. Although this study [20] did not report the pH variability occurring naturally in the organism's habitat, they found that in some instances coral recruits responded positively to both daily fluctuations in pH and to OA"

Yeah, "coral recruits" are the larvae of parent colonies. They noted that the finding did not extend to the parent, which reacted negatively.

 

[Jonify]

Sorry. I guess we both skimmed over it and missed some parts.

"To date, only one study has manipulated pH over a diurnal cycle mimicking ecologically relevant pH shifts (daytime pH = 8.00, night-time pH = 7.77) to examine short-term (3–6 day) effects on coral recruits [20]. Although this study [20] did not report the pH variability occurring naturally in the organism's habitat, they found that in some instances coral recruits responded positively to both daily fluctuations in pH and to OA"

Also, I had updated my post with the exact same finding you just shared, but it came through a millisecond before your response

 

[ClownWrangler]

Hmm, no, that's not what the study said at all. "In all cases, growth rates were lower at a reduced mean pH, and fluctuations in pH acted additively to further reduce growth."

Further, that was a study about kelp and Coraline algae--not the coral we usually keep in our reefs. They did note that fluctuations between 7.7 and 8.15 had positive reactions with some larvae of the Pocillopora damicornis and Seriatopora hystrix species of coral, but that the adults reacted negatively.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3385465/#RSPB20112545C25

I referenced the wrong paper. This is the correct one. I was referring to the day, night fluctuations being beneficial, not a mean low pH. Sorry for the misunderstanding

 

[Jonify]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3385465/#RSPB20112545C25

I referenced the wrong paper. This is the correct one. I was referring to the day, night fluctuations being beneficial, not a mean low pH. Sorry for the misunderstanding

Still, that says the same--effects were found in larvae; a year later, the same journal published another study (the one you originally posted) agreeing with the finding on larvae, but saying the pH swing effect was deleterious for the parent. The later study even said that the pH at the lower range, even without the swing, was deleterious for the parent. There's a lot of good nuggets in these, but the positive effects of pH swings don't apply to the coral we keep--the parents.

 

[yan2pr]

When you test the pH with another reputable test kit, what does it read at night and what does it read during the height of photosynthesis? Try using a couple test kits to see what they read. Based upon the price and reputation of the Apex Neptune system one would expect the probes would be spot on. What I have found with almost every meter, test kit, digital reader, etc. is they all give a readout of something slightly different. After my investment in the Apex, I am not going to throw my hands in the air and tell you or anyone to not pay that close attention to what the probes say because I truly believe they are telling you something. Maybe it is just a consistent account of the pH over time. In any event, to try to allay your frustrations, maybe try looking at what something else says and not rely completely on the one Apex probe?

Do you use or recommend any other test kit? I dont have anything else laying around and i was just relying on apex only.

 

[jt8791]

this has me glad that I set my tank up on the cool end of the apartment with drafts all over the place. Got a drafty wall behind it, drafty french door beside it and a light switch behind one fuge with a cold air draft, plus the room downstairs is drafty and unheated at the moment.

I was looking into houseplants, one I came across called mother in law or snakes tongue, supposed to take in carbon dioxide at night and put out oxygen from what I have read. Quite a few others that remove carbon monoxide but that's the only one I have seen that removes carbon dioxide. Not sure if that might help you or not.

 

[KyOsIBa515]

I did not read all the comments. However, one thing that can affect PH and is commonly overlooked is temperature. The higher the temp of your water the lower the PH. The lower the temp of water the higher the PH.

Molecules move faster when temperature increases. They also expand. With such increase there is less ability to form molecular bonds and in return decreases overall PH...and vice versa.

Most don’t use chillers anymore due to cost but a lot of people will have temp swings because of their lighting. Some may even see temps upwards of 80 degrees which isn’t deadly...however, will certainly produce a different PH than someone who runs a constant 76-77 degrees.

This may 100% not be your case but thought I would throw it out there

 

[Michael Gray]

My co2 scrubber gets my tank to 8.5s. Without it I was topping out at 8.2-8.3 peak and 7.90 mid night

 

[ClownWrangler]

Do you use or recommend any other test kit? I dont have anything else laying around and i was just relying on apex only.

As Jonify already mentioned, use an API test kit and calibrate your probe before doing anything else. The first step is figuring out if you actually have a pH problem, which you may not. This doesn’t sound like an emergency, so you have time to acquire what you need. Clean, recondition and calibrate your probe to 7.0 and 10.0 reference solutions at a minimum and double check with an API test kit to make sure it’s at least ballpark. If it’s a single junction probe, it may be toast as old as it is not having proper maintenance. If it’s a double junction probe, you may be able to save it. Here’s a great reference on the subject. The cleaning solutions you can buy are basically HCl at about 0.1M concentration if I remember correctly.

http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-electrode-rejuvenating

 

[ClownWrangler]

I did not read all the comments. However, one thing that can affect PH and is commonly overlooked is temperature. The higher the temp of your water the lower the PH. The lower the temp of water the higher the PH.

Molecules move faster when temperature increases. They also expand. With such increase there is less ability to form molecular bonds and in return decreases overall PH...and vice versa.

Most don’t use chillers anymore due to cost but a lot of people will have temp swings because of their lighting. Some may even see temps upwards of 80 degrees which isn’t deadly...however, will certainly produce a different PH than someone who runs a constant 76-77 degrees.

This may 100% not be your case but thought I would throw it out there

This would actuually counter the night time pH swing wouldnt it?

 

[ClownWrangler]

this has me glad that I set my tank up on the cool end of the apartment with drafts all over the place. Got a drafty wall behind it, drafty french door beside it and a light switch behind one fuge with a cold air draft, plus the room downstairs is drafty and unheated at the moment.

I was looking into houseplants, one I came across called mother in law or snakes tongue, supposed to take in carbon dioxide at night and put out oxygen from what I have read. Quite a few others that remove carbon monoxide but that's the only one I have seen that removes carbon dioxide. Not sure if that might help you or not.

The effects of a few houseplants will be negligible in comparison to the macro in the refugium with strong lighting. A single mouse breathing the air in the room would probably have a greater effect in the opposite direction. Upping the light at night in the refugium will do more in terms of reducing CO2 than a jungle in your living room would under standard household lighting conditions.

https://www.gardenmyths.com/houseplants-increase-oxygen-levels/

 

[jt8791]

Oh I didn’t know, saw he tried house plants figured it might be worth a shot but moreso for the overall air quality in the room. But I didn’t research it much, was looking into houseplants for the gf anyways and happened to come across it.

I didn’t catch if he had a refugium or not, hard to read on a small phone. I know I’m glad to have a fuge on this tank, even if it is just 2 modded ac110s, still cheaper than a small cpr Aqua fuge

 

[KyOsIBa515]

This would actuually counter the night time pH swing wouldnt it?

Yes it does. However, water chemistry goes from the most basic to extremely complex.

In our systems we see pretty large swings in PH during the course of 24 hours simply through water volume and the photosynthetic period and ability for water to oxygenate...and of course other environmental factors.

In nature or the ocean we don’t see PH swings really like we do on our tanks.

Nevertheless, it varies in the ocean more so by areas of different water temperature.

In this case maybe he has a large load in his house. Pets, kids producing carbon. Which plants in the house will help with.

Even what type of water RO vs RO/DI can make a difference. Especially when trying to buffer.

However, in the short regardless of all of what was said. Ph and temperature of water are in fact relative despite the PH drop at night in our tanks. Which has to do with photosynthesis and stability.

 

[ClownWrangler]

In nature or the ocean we don’t see PH swings really like we do on our tanks.

CARBON DIOXIDE FLUX AND METABOLIC PROCESSES OF A CORAL REEF, OKINAWA

In that paper I referenced there was mention of a pH swing as high as 0.5 being quite normal for shallow reefs with acopora, montipora ect. I further investigated the source and found a very informative paper on typical reef parameters in a reef in Okinawa with corals similar to what we grow in our aquariums. The OPs swing is only 0.13, so I don’t think that’s nearly as much of an issue as the mean pH, which is apparently much higher in the ocean than in most of our tanks. the fact that our tanks do thrive with significantly lower pH than what is found in reefs opens up another interesting can of worms though in terms of possibly debunking how detrimental ocean acidification supposedly is. It’s unfortunate that it’s uncommon for reefers to monitor and log this data accurately, otherwise we would collectively have more usable data than the entire scientific community and their one-off lab experiments.

 

[KyOsIBa515]

That is the interesting thing about temperature of water and PH. Even though it affects the PH it does not affect the acidity of water because it is not robbing hydrogen like carbon.

Thus, leads me to believe a lot of PH swings we see in our tanks maybe more related to temperature over the environmental factors. Even the swings in the shallow reefs. If in fact we saw swings of PH in our aquariums due to heavy CO2 it would be devastating . 10 to 20 fold being it is logarithmic.

 

[josephxsxn]

I would get another probe, in 2020 I had one that seemed to calibrate correctly in PH 7 fluid but would never read above 7.6-7.7... It was over a year old.

The main inputs to calculating PH are ALK and CO2, in this case you have ALK and PH so we can reverse the below tables to find current CO2.. To go from a PH of say 7.8 to 8.0 will require more then a 50% reduction in current co2 ppm levels. When I hooked up my outdoor skimmer line it took a few days for the minimum PH to slowly rise to 8.0, and the highs to become 8.3, it wasn't overnight.

What is your Alk at? Perhaps there isn't enough gas exchange taking place in the skimmer still? Maybe your indoor air is over 1000 ppm co2 and is besting the skimmer+media? (From other reading homes with 1000ppm co2 my start some human issues like light headaches...)

CO2SYS Marine Tank Table for PH/DKH/CO2

Some of you may have seen a planted tank table I have passed around that shows the relationship between CO2, DKH and PH. Personally this table has really helped me understand my system better hence my attempts to share it. By having my DKH supplement on a doser, skimmer set schedule with outdoor...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[HaveFishWillTravel]

Do you use or recommend any other test kit? I dont have anything else laying around and i was just relying on apex only.

Yeah, pH is easy. API is an inexpensive one, but works. You’ll want the pH and the pH High-range test kit.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would get another probe, in 2020 I had one that seemed to calibrate correctly in PH 7 fluid but would never read above 7.6-7.7... It was over a year old.

Single point calibration is not desirable. If it calibrated at pH 7 and a pH above the tank water, it should read the tank water OK and the issue was likely something else.

 

[ReefPig]

I appreciate every tanks biology is different etc etc, but, I doubt that it's even possible, given all the things you're doing, for your tank to be 7.8.

I run a CO2 scrubber and reverse lit algae reactor, thats it, no kalk dosing or anything of the such, I dose Triton throughout the day.

I consistently achieve lows between 8.2-8.3 and peaks between 8.4-8.5, as confirmed with my GHL and Hanna PH probes.

Assuming you're confident in your PH test results, and that you've tested it with independent methods, then something else must be going on, as it just doesn't make any sense.

Have you ever done an ICP test? and do you dose any trace elements?
I seem to remember Boron is very important for PH.

 

[Alchameth]

Noticed my PH was dropping .15-.2 below what I normally see. Dropped a PH 7.01 pouch in the sump to equalize the temp, probe read that at 6.85 so knew I needed to recalibrate. That's why I bought PH7H10 solutions at 3:1

Easy to check with the 7 and see if you need to recalibrate.