Getting frustrated with the PH

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That is the interesting thing about temperature of water and PH. Even though it affects the PH it does not affect the acidity of water because it is not robbing hydrogen like carbon.

Thus, leads me to believe a lot of PH swings we see in our tanks maybe more related to temperature over the environmental factors. Even the swings in the shallow reefs. If in fact we saw swings of PH in our aquariums due to heavy CO2 it would be devastating . 10 to 20 fold being it is logarithmic.

No, the pH swing is not due to temperature changes. It is due to adding and removal of CO2 by respiration and photosynthesis.

Yes, the swing in CO2 is large.

The temperature effect on pH electrodes is about 0.003 pH units per degree C at pH 8.0.

Thus a daily temperature swing of 2 deg C (3.6 deg F) only causes a pH measurement error of about 0.006 pH units.


Temperature can also cause changes in the acidity and basicity of things like bicarboante, but again, these effects are pretty small for seawater at ph 8.0

Even though it affects the PH it does not affect the acidity of water because it is not robbing hydrogen like carbon.

FWIW, I do not think those words make sense.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I appreciate every tanks biology is different etc etc, but, I doubt that it's even possible, given all the things you're doing, for your tank to be 7.8.

I run a CO2 scrubber and reverse lit algae reactor, thats it, no kalk dosing or anything of the such, I dose Triton throughout the day.

I consistently achieve lows between 8.2-8.3 and peaks between 8.4-8.5, as confirmed with my GHL and Hanna PH probes.

Assuming you're confident in your PH test results, and that you've tested it with independent methods, then something else must be going on, as it just doesn't make any sense.

Have you ever done an ICP test? and do you dose any trace elements?
I seem to remember Boron is very important for PH.

Many tanks have pH 7.8 due to elevated indoor CO2.

The other things are not causing low pH.

 

[ReefPig]

Many tanks have pH 7.8 due to elevated indoor CO2.

The other things are not causing low pH.

Totally, but I've never seen anyone running a scrubber at 7.8, let alone a fuge in addition.
The amount of CO2 in the room to overcome them both would have to be incredible.

Million dollars his PH probe is wrong, as this doesn't pass the sniff test.

 

[HaveFishWillTravel]

I calibrated at 7 and 10.

 

[HaveFishWillTravel]

The effects of a few houseplants will be negligible in comparison to the macro in the refugium with strong lighting. A single mouse breathing the air in the room would probably have a greater effect in the opposite direction. Upping the light at night in the refugium will do more in terms of reducing CO2 than a jungle in your living room would under standard household lighting conditions.

https://www.gardenmyths.com/houseplants-increase-oxygen-levels/

Houseplants are always nice though ;-)

 

[yan2pr]

So we did a PH test with API kit. Looks like 8 to me but then again i hate this color charts i can never be sure.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Totally, but I've never seen anyone running a scrubber at 7.8, let alone a fuge in addition.
The amount of CO2 in the room to overcome them both would have to be incredible.

Million dollars his PH probe is wrong, as this doesn't pass the sniff test.

It might be off, but I’ve seen lots of folks struggling in tight homes or apartments.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So we did a PH test with API kit. Looks like 8 to me but then again i hate this color charts i can never be sure.

I personally do not think pH kits are worth using. They are very imprecise and there’s no easy way to verify them.

 

[yan2pr]

I appreciate every tanks biology is different etc etc, but, I doubt that it's even possible, given all the things you're doing, for your tank to be 7.8.

I run a CO2 scrubber and reverse lit algae reactor, thats it, no kalk dosing or anything of the such, I dose Triton throughout the day.

I consistently achieve lows between 8.2-8.3 and peaks between 8.4-8.5, as confirmed with my GHL and Hanna PH probes.

Assuming you're confident in your PH test results, and that you've tested it with independent methods, then something else must be going on, as it just doesn't make any sense.

Have you ever done an ICP test? and do you dose any trace elements?
I seem to remember Boron is very important for PH.

Yes i did an ICP test because one of my favorite corals died overnight and boron is at 0 was about to post the numbers here on R2R to get some help getting them right. No trace elements dosing for me, only water change and BRS 2-part plus TM part c.

 

[yan2pr]

I personally do not think pH kits are worth using. They are very imprecise and there’s no easy way to verify them.

I understand, I am not too good reading this kits amd dont like them i just borrowed from a buddy to verify this. Do you have any recommendation on what tool can i use to verify my PH, i am starting to believe and hope the probe is the issue

 

[yan2pr]

ICP test results

 

[ReefPig]

Yes i did an ICP test because one of my favorite corals died overnight and boron is at 0 was about to post the numbers here on R2R to get some help getting them right. No trace elements dosing for me, only water change and BRS 2-part plus TM part c.

A while back I was having issues with dinos, and I was advised to stop dosing trace elements or doing water changes until It was resolved.

I did this, as I dose Triton, all of the minor and trace elements are part of the magnesium supplement, so I just stopped dosing that liquid.

Over the course of 2 months I found day on day, bit by bit, that my PH was dropping, for no obvious reason. It was summer, so widows were open, scrubber was running, so it didn’t make much sense.

After I resolved my dino issue, I restarted dosing correctly with the trace elements and I did a number of water changes. This seemed to improve things a little.
Later I did an ICP and found that Boron, along with many others, were extremely low.

As recommended by Triton, I started to dose individual elements slowly, over the course of a couple of weeks.
By the time Boron was back where it should have been, as confirmed by another ICP, my PH was back where it used to be and was much more stable.

I did some reading up and found a few bits of info on Boron and PH, this was months ago now, so don’t have them to hand, but do some googling.

My money is on your probe or kit is wrong, as I just don’t believe such low numbers, given you‘re doing so much to elevate your PH, however, if your Boron is zero, this could be contributing to low or unstable PH.

 

[ReefPig]

ICP test results

Quite a lot of low elements, which I would be addressing, but it’s up to you.

Boron, Bromine, Lithium, zinc, are all important for the enzymatic processes in your tank.

I would raise Mg and Ca, but that’s just my personal taste.

Iodine and Molybdenum are important for coral health and color, but critical if your run any macro algae.
Manganese is also used up extremely quickly, particularly if you run any macro algae, but it’s not critical in the same way, albeit, I dose additional of it via my RO/DI, I find it helps with polyp extension.

In my opinion, in a modern reef, dosing trace elements is very important, and part of the reason so many people struggle, or just suddenly have a tank crash/RTN.

 

[yan2pr]

A while back I was having issues with dinos, and I was advised to stop dosing trace elements or doing water changes until It was resolved.

I did this, as I dose Triton, all of the minor and trace elements are part of the magnesium supplement, so I just stopped dosing that liquid.

Over the course of 2 months I found day on day, bit by bit, that my PH was dropping, for no obvious reason. It was summer, so widows were open, scrubber was running, so it didn’t make much sense.

After I resolved my dino issue, I restarted dosing correctly with the trace elements and I did a number of water changes. This seemed to improve things a little.
Later I did an ICP and found that Boron, along with many others, were extremely low.

As recommended by Triton, I started to dose individual elements slowly, over the course of a couple of weeks.
By the time Boron was back where it should have been, as confirmed by another ICP, my PH was back where it used to be and was much more stable.

I did some reading up and found a few bits of info on Boron and PH, this was months ago now, so don’t have them to hand, but do some googling.

My money is on your probe or kit is wrong, as I just don’t believe such low numbers, given you‘re doing so much to elevate your PH, however, if your Boron is zero, this could be contributing to low or unstable PH.

I had no idea this even existed, not too experienced as a reefer. Ill google it ASAP to see what can be done to fix this boron deficiency and how it affects the tank. This hobby can be frustrating but at the same time it is so interesting theres so many things to learn. Thanks for the help

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes i did an ICP test because one of my favorite corals died overnight and boron is at 0 was about to post the numbers here on R2R to get some help getting them right. No trace elements dosing for me, only water change and BRS 2-part plus TM part c.

Boron is not the cause of low pH, but it is fine to dose some.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

A while back I was having issues with dinos, and I was advised to stop dosing trace elements or doing water changes until It was resolved.

I did this, as I dose Triton, all of the minor and trace elements are part of the magnesium supplement, so I just stopped dosing that liquid.

Over the course of 2 months I found day on day, bit by bit, that my PH was dropping, for no obvious reason. It was summer, so widows were open, scrubber was running, so it didn’t make much sense.

After I resolved my dino issue, I restarted dosing correctly with the trace elements and I did a number of water changes. This seemed to improve things a little.
Later I did an ICP and found that Boron, along with many others, were extremely low.

As recommended by Triton, I started to dose individual elements slowly, over the course of a couple of weeks.
By the time Boron was back where it should have been, as confirmed by another ICP, my PH was back where it used to be and was much more stable.

I did some reading up and found a few bits of info on Boron and PH, this was months ago now, so don’t have them to hand, but do some googling.

My money is on your probe or kit is wrong, as I just don’t believe such low numbers, given you‘re doing so much to elevate your PH, however, if your Boron is zero, this could be contributing to low or unstable PH.

No. I have written several articles on boron and pH buffering. It is not ever a cause of low pH.

 

[ReefPig]

I had no idea this even existed, not too experienced as a reefer. Ill google it ASAP to see what can be done to fix this boron deficiency and how it affects the tank. This hobby can be frustrating but at the same time it is so interesting theres so many things to learn. Thanks for the help

Resolving low elements is easy.
Either do a series of water changes, 20% weekly will help, but this is a little like chasing your tail, particularly when some elements are zero, they will be used up very quickly, you’ll struggle to ever really catch up.

My preferred way is just to dose individual elements carefully and in accordance with ICP data.
My poison of choice again is Triton, as the ICP results also tells me exactly what, how much and how to dose it.

Once your numbers are back where they should be, water changes do help for a while, but again they will drop over time.

Lots of options of supplement elements, RedSea, Triton, ATI, Fauna Marin etc, all of them sit alongside major element dosing and provide the minor and traces reasonably aligned.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

A while back I was having issues with dinos, and I was advised to stop dosing trace elements or doing water changes until It was resolved.

I did this, as I dose Triton, all of the minor and trace elements are part of the magnesium supplement, so I just stopped dosing that liquid.

Over the course of 2 months I found day on day, bit by bit, that my PH was dropping, for no obvious reason. It was summer, so widows were open, scrubber was running, so it didn’t make much sense.

After I resolved my dino issue, I restarted dosing correctly with the trace elements and I did a number of water changes. This seemed to improve things a little.
Later I did an ICP and found that Boron, along with many others, were extremely low.

As recommended by Triton, I started to dose individual elements slowly, over the course of a couple of weeks.
By the time Boron was back where it should have been, as confirmed by another ICP, my PH was back where it used to be and was much more stable.

I did some reading up and found a few bits of info on Boron and PH, this was months ago now, so don’t have them to hand, but do some googling.

My money is on your probe or kit is wrong, as I just don’t believe such low numbers, given you‘re doing so much to elevate your PH, however, if your Boron is zero, this could be contributing to low or unstable PH.

No need to google about boron. I am totally familiar with the issue, and googling "boron and pH in a reef aquarium" turns up my article as the first hit.

BORON IS NOT EVER A CAUSE of low pH. pH is determined mathematically by carbonate alkalinity and CO2. Boron is not in the determination.

Borate does contribute a small amount to reducing the size of the daily pH swing by providing buffering against addition and subtraction of CO2 impacting pH.

As to the trace elements, letting them decline (which is a reasonable idea for dinos) likely reduced photosynthesis in various organisms (including dinos) that needed them, and hence the pH dropped because CO2 consumption declined.

It is NOT because the trace elements directly impact pH.

In this article I go into great chemical depth of the effect of borate on pH:

Chemistry And The Aquarium: Boron In A Reef Tank

This article also discusses the sources and sinks for boron in reef tanks, and shows that while typical tanks may be slightly depleted in boron with respect to natural levels, most are not so significantly depleted that any correction is required. Nevertheless, how to test for and supplement...

reefs.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I had no idea this even existed, not too experienced as a reefer. Ill google it ASAP to see what can be done to fix this boron deficiency and how it affects the tank. This hobby can be frustrating but at the same time it is so interesting theres so many things to learn. Thanks for the help

Please listen to me. I know you are not experienced, which is why I started this forum and several other reef chemistry forums and have been leading them for over 20 years. This is not one of those he said she said sorts of issues. Boron is not causing your low pH and you will just waste time and money on that.

It is fine to dose borate if boron is low, but do not expect it to help a low pH problem.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I understand, I am not too good reading this kits amd dont like them i just borrowed from a buddy to verify this. Do you have any recommendation on what tool can i use to verify my PH, i am starting to believe and hope the probe is the issue

A properly and freshly calibrated pH meter is the way to go. If it correctly reads pH 7 and 10 correctly in a cup of water, then it will correctly read your tank water in a cup.

Note: use a cup away from the tank measuring in the tank is prone to potential interference, both through the air and through the water. It normally works OK in a tank, but not always.