Getting frustrated with the PH

[yan2pr]

A properly and freshly calibrated pH meter is the way to go. If it correctly reads pH 7 and 10 correctly in a cup of water, then it will correctly read your tank water in a cup.

Note: use a cup away from the tank measuring in the tank is prone to potential interference, both through the air and through the water. It normally works OK in a tank, but not always.

This will be my next step, ill borrow a hanna ph checker. I will recalibrate it before use. Lets see what happens, From there ill figure out if i need to buy a new probe or a different PH meter.

 

[yan2pr]

Please listen to me. I know you are not experienced, which is why I started this forum and several other reef chemistry forums and have been leading them for over 20 years. This is not one of those he said she said sorts of issues. Boron is not causing your low pH and you will just waste time and money on that.

It is fine to dose borate if boron is low, but do not expect it to help a low pH problem.

I appreciate all the help, its is amazing to see the amount of people willing to help, i will not sweat it about the boron then, but i will correct it at some point as well as all the other deficiencies i had in the icp test, now im more concerned about PH. Thanks for all you have done for us newbies in 20 years.

 

[yan2pr]

Resolving low elements is easy.
Either do a series of water changes, 20% weekly will help, but this is a little like chasing your tail, particularly when some elements are zero, they will be used up very quickly, you’ll struggle to ever really catch up.

My preferred way is just to dose individual elements carefully and in accordance with ICP data.
My poison of choice again is Triton, as the ICP results also tells me exactly what, how much and how to dose it.

Once your numbers are back where they should be, water changes do help for a while, but again they will drop over time.

Lots of options of supplement elements, RedSea, Triton, ATI, Fauna Marin etc, all of them sit alongside major element dosing and provide the minor and traces reasonably aligned.

Thanks for all the input and all the help notifying me about the deficiencies in the icp test. I will take care of those. I am currently reading about the different programs available for trace elements.

 

[ReefPig]

No need to google about boron. I am totally familiar with the issue, and googling "boron and pH in a reef aquarium" turns up my article as the first hit.

BORON IS NOT EVER A CAUSE of low pH. pH is determined mathematically by carbonate alkalinity and CO2. Boron is not in the determination.

Borate does contribute a small amount to reducing the size of the daily pH swing by providing buffering against addition and subtraction of CO2 impacting pH.

As to the trace elements, letting them decline (which is a reasonable idea for dinos) likely reduced photosynthesis in various organisms (including dinos) that needed them, and hence the pH dropped because CO2 consumption declined.

It is NOT because the trace elements directly impact pH.

In this article I go into great chemical depth of the effect of borate on pH:

Chemistry And The Aquarium: Boron In A Reef Tank

This article also discusses the sources and sinks for boron in reef tanks, and shows that while typical tanks may be slightly depleted in boron with respect to natural levels, most are not so significantly depleted that any correction is required. Nevertheless, how to test for and supplement...

reefs.com

Randy, in no less than three responses, I specifically said that the issue is almost absolutely certain that it's either their probe or test kit, as from my own experience, I cannot see any situation where they could possibly be doing all of these positive things to elevate their PH, yet only achieving 7.8, it makes no sense at all.

When they gets a new probe/recalibrates they will see this.
If this isn't the case, the room would have to be so high in CO2 that it would be practically unbreathable.

My partner and I live in a two bedroom apartment with two cats and the windows shut 80% of the time, yet scrubbing alone gets me to 8.3, with an algae reactor I consistently peak over 8.45.

My question on elements was loosely related and more to do with the unstable nature of his PH (large swings), which is exactly where Boron can support, in the stability, or buffering as you stated.

Your own papers say as such, and likewise Triton say the same, which was my original source of information.

Whilst I didn't fully appreciate that no Boron wouldn't contribute to low PH, but more specifically just to the stability of such, it doesn't get away from the fact that their elements are not in great shape.
Many of the elements on their ICP are important to the reef, and a lot are zero or very low.

Lets not confused two completely separate things.

I believe my advise was good, quote:

Quite a lot of low elements, which I would be addressing, but it’s up to you.

Boron, Bromine, Lithium, zinc, are all important for the enzymatic processes in your tank.

I would raise Mg and Ca, but that’s just my personal taste.

Iodine and Molybdenum are important for coral health and color, but critical if your run any macro algae.
Manganese is also used up extremely quickly, particularly if you run any macro algae, but it’s not critical in the same way, albeit, I dose additional of it via my RO/DI, I find it helps with polyp extension.

In my opinion, in a modern reef, dosing trace elements is very important, and part of the reason so many people struggle, or just suddenly have a tank crash/RTN.

Nowhere here did I say anything about low PH and elements, but just good general advise about their elements based on the ICP results.

For reference, here are your own quotes and Triton's:

I love the fact that someone with actual understanding of this stuff and as passionate as you, are part of the community, but I feel like you jumped down my throat a little.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, in no less than three responses, I specifically said that the issue is almost absolutely certain that it's either their probe or test kit, as from my own experience, I cannot see any situation where they could possibly be doing all of these positive things to elevate their PH, yet only achieving 7.8, it makes no sense at all.

When they gets a new probe/recalibrates they will see this.
If this isn't the case, the room would have to be so high in CO2 that it would be practically unbreathable.

My partner and I live in a two bedroom apartment with two cats and the windows shut 80% of the time, yet scrubbing alone gets me to 8.3, with an algae reactor I consistently peak over 8.45.

My question on elements was loosely related and more to do with the unstable nature of his PH (large swings), which is exactly where Boron can support, in the stability, or buffering as you stated.

Your own papers say as such, and likewise Triton say the same, which was my original source of information.

Whilst I didn't fully appreciate that no Boron wouldn't contribute to low PH, but more specifically just to the stability of such, it doesn't get away from the fact that their elements are not in great shape.
Many of the elements on their ICP are important to the reef, and a lot are zero or very low.

Lets not confused two completely separate things.

I believe my advise was good, quote:


Nowhere here did I say anything about low PH and elements, but just good general advise about their elements based on the ICP results.

For reference, here are your own quotes and Triton's:

I love the fact that someone with actual understanding of this stuff and as passionate as you, are part of the community, but you sometimes jump down peoples throat, and do not always read what has been written.

I'm sorry if I seemed too harsh. I take the chemistry in this forum very seriously. Perhaps too seriously sometimes.

I see little reason to fight about this. The OP has an issue with low pH, not with excessive pH swings (at least not that he has mentioned). Neither problem is caused by boron at any level, but low boron will contribute to pH swings. More aeration is a better way to reduce pH swings, even with no boron. Complete aeration will eliminate pH changes day to night.

Lots and lots of folks have low pH despite many actions short of fully open windows. it may be hard to believe, but it happens. If the room air remains high in CO2, then some tanks have enough tank top aeration to overcome efforts to consume or remove Co2.

 

[jt8791]

This might cause micro bubbles and not work depending on the location. But what about the basic petco power heads, specifically the adapter with the air line connection and run that hose outside to help with ph? That’s if you still have low ph anyways

 

[yan2pr]

Ok so i tested again with a Hanna PH meter and another brand ph test kit and it tested 7.8 on both, at least it seems the probe is not faulty.

 

[Jonify]

The effects of a few houseplants will be negligible in comparison to the macro in the refugium with strong lighting. A single mouse breathing the air in the room would probably have a greater effect in the opposite direction. Upping the light at night in the refugium will do more in terms of reducing CO2 than a jungle in your living room would under standard household lighting conditions.

https://www.gardenmyths.com/houseplants-increase-oxygen-levels/

If there is a mouse breathing in your room, we have other issues Seriously, though, EPA-NASA did a study on this a while back and found that--in tightly sealed rooms--having 5 medium-sized houseplants had a positive impact on CO2 levels. I can't find that study any more, but another recent study showed that over the course of 6 hours in a tightly sealed room with ample light, several house plants were able to scrub about 500ppm of CO2 from the air. That said, unless the room is sealed for large amounts of time, it's more likely that your front door opening and normal AC cycling/exchanges will have a much larger, positive impact on your tank's pH than house plants.

Many tanks have pH 7.8 due to elevated indoor CO2.
The other things are not causing low pH.

Yes, I had the same issue (and you helped me through it). Solving the high indoor CO2 levels solved my pH issues. (went from 7.8 to 8.2). CO2 has a huge impact on pH, and if you're interested in calculating it, you can grab a CO2 meter from Amazon, record the result, and then plug in those readings here for a ballpark. FYSA, normal CO2 levels with adequate home air exchange are around 500-600. Elevated levels in tightly sealed homes are around 1,000. My condo was 1,400.

Totally, but I've never seen anyone running a scrubber at 7.8, let alone a fuge in addition.
The amount of CO2 in the room to overcome them both would have to be incredible.

Million dollars his PH probe is wrong, as this doesn't pass the sniff test.

If CO2 is high enough, it's absolutely possible that pH sits at 7.8, even with a scrubber. I am the case study on that. My condo was at 1400ppm CO2. The difference between that and the level it is now, 500ppm, had a .4 impact on my pH. So from 7.8 to 8.2.

 

[KyOsIBa515]

No, the pH swing is not due to temperature changes. It is due to adding and removal of CO2 by respiration and photosynthesis.

Yes, the swing in CO2 is large.

The temperature effect on pH electrodes is about 0.003 pH units per degree C at pH 8.0.

Thus a daily temperature swing of 2 deg C (3.6 deg F) only causes a pH measurement error of about 0.006 pH units.


Temperature can also cause changes in the acidity and basicity of things like bicarboante, but again, these effects are pretty small for seawater at ph 8.0





FWIW, I do not think those words make sense.

How will Temperature affect acidity? Temperature is not adding or using molecules...only adding or lessening the ability to make molecular bonds.

 

[ReefPig]

If there is a mouse breathing in your room, we have other issues Seriously, though, EPA-NASA did a study on this a while back and found that--in tightly sealed rooms--having 5 medium-sized houseplants had a positive impact on CO2 levels. I can't find that study any more, but another recent study showed that over the course of 6 hours in a tightly sealed room with ample light, several house plants were able to scrub about 500ppm of CO2 from the air. That said, unless the room is sealed for large amounts of time, it's more likely that your front door opening and normal AC cycling/exchanges will have a much larger, positive impact on your tank's pH than house plants.

Yes, I had the same issue (and you helped me through it). Solving the high indoor CO2 levels solved my pH issues. (went from 7.8 to 8.2). CO2 has a huge impact on pH, and if you're interested in calculating it, you can grab a CO2 meter from Amazon, record the result, and then plug in those readings here for a ballpark. FYSA, normal CO2 levels with adequate home air exchange are around 500-600. Elevated levels in tightly sealed homes are around 1,000. My condo was 1,400.

If CO2 is high enough, it's absolutely possible that pH sits at 7.8, even with a scrubber. I am the case study on that. My condo was at 1400ppm CO2. The difference between that and the level it is now, 500ppm, had a .4 impact on my pH. So from 7.8 to 8.2.

What was your resolution to get from 1400 to 500ppm CO2?

 

[KyOsIBa515]

What was your resolution to get from 1400 to 500ppm CO2?

Sounds like an issue with his A/C? Most houses that have proper A/C units shouldn’t run above 1000ppm....regardless of how many occupants dumping CO2 in the air. If it goes beyond 1000ppm i’d say ya need to looking into your unit because it isn’t properly doing its job.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If there is a mouse breathing in your room, we have other issues Seriously, though, EPA-NASA did a study on this a while back and found that--in tightly sealed rooms--having 5 medium-sized houseplants had a positive impact on CO2 levels. I can't find that study any more, but another recent study showed that over the course of 6 hours in a tightly sealed room with ample light, several house plants were able to scrub about 500ppm of CO2 from the air. That said, unless the room is sealed for large amounts of time, it's more likely that your front door opening and normal AC cycling/exchanges will have a much larger, positive impact on your tank's pH than house plants.

Yes, I had the same issue (and you helped me through it). Solving the high indoor CO2 levels solved my pH issues. (went from 7.8 to 8.2). CO2 has a huge impact on pH, and if you're interested in calculating it, you can grab a CO2 meter from Amazon, record the result, and then plug in those readings here for a ballpark. FYSA, normal CO2 levels with adequate home air exchange are around 500-600. Elevated levels in tightly sealed homes are around 1,000. My condo was 1,400.

If CO2 is high enough, it's absolutely possible that pH sits at 7.8, even with a scrubber. I am the case study on that. My condo was at 1400ppm CO2. The difference between that and the level it is now, 500ppm, had a .4 impact on my pH. So from 7.8 to 8.2.

FWIW, the fallacy with the closed room house plant studies is that it assumes no CO2 input and no air turnover. Even a tightly sealed ordinary home has turnover of the air in a few hours or less. That far outweighs what house plants can do. The problem is the HUGE amount of CO2 from people, cooking, etc. Far, far more than 500 ppm in a day.

Here's how I suggest folks thing of it:

1. You breathe out CO2 from metabolizing food. The more food, the more CO2.

2. Plants consume CO2 by growing/building tissue (no other way).

So unless the plants are adding about the same mass as you eat in food every day, they will not reduce CO2 to the degree that you are producing it.

If you have a reef tank in a greenhouse (some folks do), then yes, plants help. Otherwise, they are nearly useless.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sounds like an issue with his A/C? Most houses that have proper A/C units shouldn’t run above 1000ppm....regardless of how many occupants dumping CO2 in the air. If it goes beyond 1000ppm i’d say ya need to looking into your unit because it isn’t properly doing its job.

Air conditioners do not necessarily exchange any air with the outside. Mine certainly do not.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How will Temperature affect acidity? Temperature is not adding or using molecules...only adding or lessening the ability to make molecular bonds.

I do not know what you are claiming exactly. It is certainly not the case the the daily pH swing is caused by temperature changes impacting the pKa of the main buffer of the pH in seawater, the bicarbonate/carbonate system.

Many folks, such as myself, tightly control temperature to within less than 0.2 degrees, and I saw the ordinary pH swings.

Bicarbonate does become very slightly more acidic as the temperature rises. That has a very slight pH lowering effect. It is not enough to explain the daily pH swing.

 

[Betex]

I had the same problem where with just a co2 scrubber wasn’t cutting it. I ended up switching to kalk through a pump and also do Randy’s sodium hydroxide recipe and now low at night stays around 8-8.1 and peaks to 8.35.

 

[Jonify]

What was your resolution to get from 1400 to 500ppm CO2?

I cracked two windows (just enough to feel a slight draft if I put my hand over it), both in different rooms to make sure there was a slight amount of continuous air exchange. (and banned my roommate from cooking with our gas stove ) Now my CO2 sits at 500 ... this isn't practical for a lot of folks, but it's working very well for me, and the AC/heat doesn't come on a whole lot more than usual.

 

[Jonify]

Air conditioners do not necessarily exchange any air with the outside. Mine certainly do not.

Mine does not either. I was originally looking into a fresh air exchanger for the house, but the cracked windows are having the same effect, so for now, that's good enough for me.

 

[KyOsIBa515]

I do not know what you are claiming exactly. It is certainly not the case the the daily pH swing is caused by temperature changes impacting the pKa of the main buffer of the pH in seawater, the bicarbonate/carbonate system.

Many folks, such as myself, tightly control temperature to within less than 0.2 degrees, and I saw the ordinary pH swings.

Bicarbonate does become very slightly more acidic as the temperature rises. That has a very slight pH lowering effect. It is not enough to explain the daily pH swing.

I do not know what you are claiming exactly. It is certainly not the case the the daily pH swing is caused by temperature changes impacting the pKa of the main buffer of the pH in seawater, the bicarbonate/carbonate system.

Many folks, such as myself, tightly control temperature to within less than 0.2 degrees, and I saw the ordinary pH swings.

Bicarbonate does become very slightly more acidic as the temperature rises. That has a very slight pH lowering effect. It is not enough to explain the daily pH swing.

I was stating temperature does indeed play a role in the affect of PH. Is it enough to cause such a swing? Probably not...however, there are too many variables that can play into how CO2 is being consumed. Example...how much CO2 is actually in the home? Salinity, temp, lighting schedule etc.

I have heard of reverse cycling working well by a fuge going through a photosynthetic period opposite of the display to help keep oxygen being processed in the tank.

Either way, a lot of us chase pH but the reality if we have all of other parameters in check and our livestock is healthy pH should take care of itself.

Trying to correct it can lead to overdosing things like alkalinity and causing more problems down stream.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was stating temperature does indeed play a role in the affect of PH. Is it enough to cause such a swing? Probably not...however, there are too many variables that can play into how CO2 is being consumed. Example...how much CO2 is actually in the home? Salinity, temp, lighting schedule etc.

I have heard of reverse cycling working well by a fuge going through a photosynthetic period opposite of the display to help keep oxygen being processed in the tank.

Either way, a lot of us chase pH but the reality if we have all of other parameters in check and our livestock is healthy pH should take care of itself.

Trying to correct it can lead to overdosing things like alkalinity and causing more problems down stream.

It seems like you are trying to invent an explanation for something that is very well understood by both reef hobbyists and to scientists studying the ocean. pH swings due to CO2 changes from photosynthesis and respiration. Any other effects are a very minor contribution laid on top of that swing.

I don't agree that pH will always take care of itself. I do agree that one needs to approach it in appropriate ways.

Here's a typical comment in the scientific literature:

Diurnal fluctuations in seawater pH influence the response of a calcifying macroalga to ocean acidification

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2013.2201

"In the open ocean, pH does not vary greatly in time and space, making laboratory simulations of future pH levels relatively straight forward. By contrast, near-shore marine organisms live in a highly variable pH environment where daily pH fluctuations owing to biological activity can exceed 1 unit. These changes are often driven by primary producers increasing pH in the surrounding seawater during the day via photosynthesis, and decreasing pH at night owing to respiration "