Gilroy 425g Build Thread (All Apex, all the time)

[Ryan Browne]

OK, its been a little while since I have posted about any new gear changes on the reef, so it's about time!

As those who have read my thread know, I am using a lot of macro-algae in my sump as a nutrient export method. To date I have been lighting that with a spare Kessil A360W. It has been doing very well. However, I thought I could do better.

I then watched the series of videos by BRS on nutrient reduction using macroalgae and the lighting choices they tested.

I also spoke to David from Kessil back when I attended RAW and he recommended I use two of A380 just like Ryan recommended in his video.

So I decided to make it happen. The Kessils arrived yesterday. I took them down to the Fish Cave and got ready to install them. I removed the A360 from the sump. I had used the standard gooseneck to attach it and that worked really well so I decided to do the same for the A380.

First I must say that the packaging that the A380 came in is excellent. So well packaged I cannot imagine they ever have any damage to these in transit.

Using the gooseneck requires you to remove the hanging ring and attach the bracket by removing two screws, putting them back through the bracket, and then screwing it back into the light. If you want to hang the light from a cable the light comes with a couple of screw hooks you can use.

I assembled the brackets for the gooseneck and then added the optional 90-degree bracket which makes mounting the light easier so you do not have to bend the gooseneck so far.

Once on the tank I zip tied the wires and then connected the power supplies to my EB832. I turned on the outlets and then selected "grow" on the lights (they are made for horticulture so they have two settings - "grow" and "bloom" each of which have their own spectrums). The EB832 showed the lights using 94W each.

Also, before I installed them I decided to do a major thinning to the macro-algae. You can see some before and after shots below.

Now I just wait and see how the volume and quality of the macro does! I think I am going to get at least double the production-rate.

I would have uploaded more images, but with the new file uploader here on R2R it's just too much of a pain now. Sorry.

Seems like you could replace your sulfur denitrator and your Kessil grow lights and use an Algae Scrubber. This would save sump space and be much easier to harvest. My scrubber from turboaquatics.com is a champ. All I do is clean the Algae off every 2-3 weeks and keeps my tank in check.

 

[Terence]

Seems like you could replace your sulfur denitrator and your Kessil grow lights and use an Algae Scrubber. This would save sump space and be much easier to harvest. My scrubber from turboaquatics.com is a champ. All I do is clean the Algae off every 2-3 weeks and keeps my tank in check.

At some point I may be able to ditch the denitrator but there is no way that any algae scrubber will outperform the macro I am growing. The macro is super easy to thin out and it has the side benefit of being a great zone for all sorts of microfauna to thrive.

Glad to hear an ATS is working out for you.

 

[Ryan Browne]

At some point I may be able to ditch the denitrator but there is no way that any algae scrubber will outperform the macro I am growing. The macro is super easy to thin out and it has the side benefit of being a great zone for all sorts of microfauna to thrive.

Glad to hear an ATS is working out for you.

I think the main reason I like the Scrubber is it confines algae to the screen. I had good success with cheato, but the side issue was tons of algae grew with it. Made a terrible mess in my fuge. I had to remove my fuge from the system, it was a green mess. You like to experiment, try it, you might like it.

 

[Terence]

I think the main reason I like the Scrubber is it confines algae to the screen. I had good success with cheato, but the side issue was tons of algae grew with it. Made a terrible mess in my fuge. I had to remove my fuge from the system, it was a green mess. You like to experiment, try it, you might like it.

I want algae on the walls of my sump. It is where animals thrive all along that surface area. It is home to feather dusters, sponges, baby snails, and all sorts of life that is good for a reef. I have tons of room so I have a nice little biotope in my sump which is completely different than my display. In addition to three or four types of macro, I also have about 150 pounds of rock in there as well where tons of life has taken hold.

If I had a system with space constraints or a sump that was hard to get into and maintain, an ATS might be a good option.

 

[Terence]

So far I have nothing to say but good things about the new salt I have been trying. I got some samples of Fritz Reef Pro Mix and have so far mixed up four water 100g water changes with it in the last five weeks. I found that the "50g" individual bags were ver helpful but to mix to 35ppt I had to use two bags and also add four 16oz scoops. The salt mixed relatively quickly and definitely clean (both of which is what I appreciated so much from my ATM Hot Salt I was using). I did not check all my params, but I run my tank at around 8.5-8.75 dKh and my Alk monitor did not move after any of the water changes so given these were 17% water changes each, it was at least in that ballpark.

I think I will continue the Fritz journey and order up a years worth of salt. I took the advice of other reefkeepers I really respect and gave this mix a shot. For now I will give this my thumbs up and say you might want to as well.

The one final thing to say though is that I absolutely hate how all salt companies quote their salt mixes make-up number based on values much lower than what we keep our reef tanks at - Fritz says 205g at 30ppt. I am not picking on just them, but if you make a "reef" salt, I would so much rather they tell me what it will make at 35ppt and then give me individual 25g bags at that salinity. So for Fritz, you will get 170 gallons worth - just split that up into seven individual bags. Now, when I need to make 100g, I simply fill up 95 gallons of water into my vat, and pour in four bags. Turn on the mixer and I am done. Using a brute? Throw in just one. Maybe Shawn will listen to me one day - hehehe!

 

[Terence]

OK, I received my box from Triton. I also got some guidance from Tim there on how to do a hybrid Triton system with a Calcium Reactor. His solution was to continue running the CaRx but reduce the recommended dosing of the 3a and 3b down to 50%. That didn't make sense to me because then it would be likely out of balance all the time and I would be chasing it with every new ICP test.

So here are two ways I think I might try to go instead. Tell me what you think.

Method 1:
- Take the CaRx off-line.
- Start dosing the 4-part Triton method
- Find the sweet spot for the dosing using my prototype alkalinity monitor to hit the same dKh as I was running with the CaRx(all four are supposed to be done in sync)
- Remove bottles #1 and #2 and turn back on the CaRx again
- If changes are made to increase output of CaRx, increase dosing of #3a and #3b in the same proportion

Method 2:
- Dial in my CaRx so that the tank is at 8.00 dKh
- take a sample of my tank water and send for ICP
- Take a sample of my CaRx effluent and send for ICP
- Tell Triton the flow rate of that effluent
- Have Triton calculate the Part 1 and Part 2 necessary to match that CaRx output to then provide me the dosing of the #3a and #3b necessary at that CaRx output rate.

So, tell me what you all think.

 

[justingraham]

OK, I received my box from Triton. I also got some guidance from Tim there on how to do a hybrid Triton system with a Calcium Reactor. His solution was to continue running the CaRx but reduce the recommended dosing of the 3a and 3b down to 50%. That didn't make sense to me because then it would be likely out of balance all the time and I would be chasing it with every new ICP test.

So here are two ways I think I might try to go instead. Tell me what you think.

Method 1:
- Take the CaRx off-line.
- Start dosing the 4-part Triton method
- Find the sweet spot for the dosing using my prototype alkalinity monitor to hit the same dKh as I was running with the CaRx(all four are supposed to be done in sync)
- Remove bottles #1 and #2 and turn back on the CaRx again
- If changes are made to increase output of CaRx, increase dosing of #3a and #3b in the same proportion

Method 2:
- Dial in my CaRx so that the tank is at 8.00 dKh
- take a sample of my tank water and send for ICP
- Take a sample of my CaRx effluent and send for ICP
- Tell Triton the flow rate of that effluent
- Have Triton calculate the Part 1 and Part 2 necessary to match that CaRx output to then provide me the dosing of the #3a and #3b necessary at that CaRx output rate.

So, tell me what you all think.

3a and 3b are your alkalinity so unless I'm misunderstanding in ur first idea u would be removing the calcium and magnesium and doubleing ur alk.

 

[justingraham]

Also I was thinking about this and I beleive I read somewhere I forget where but they said they set the calcium reactor up to let's say 7.5 dkh then they dose the last .5 with the triton elements to bring it to 8

It should also be said that triton found out that it is better to run the tank at 7 dkh. They say eight because it's in the middle of 7-9 (there is a thread here in r2r about it) and with hobby level test kits eight is the most forgiving number. Since you have the alk meter I would run it at seven as u have the consistancy and accuracy to do that.

 

[Slayvoff]

Lol I grew up in Morgan Hill. right off Cochrane. Always was in Gilroy around the Costco/Best Buy shopping centers. small world

 

[Terence]

3a and 3b are your alkalinity so unless I'm misunderstanding in ur first idea u would be removing the calcium and magnesium and doubleing ur alk.

Actually, I just looked deeper into this and found that the bottles are even more complicated than that. So everything written above is completely wrong.

Here is what the doc says for the bottles:

Bottle Contents
Number 1 = Magnesium + Traces
Number 2 = Calcium + Traces
Number 3A = Alkalinity + Traces
Number 3B = Alkalinity + Traces

So with this information it looks like it's dose all at 50% and run the CaRx and then be out of sync forever, or run the Triton method only and take the CaRx off line.

Running only Triton on this big of a tank, as mentioned by someone else on this thread, could be a VERY costly enterprise.

This whole thing is so very confusing. I have to understand better the value of the system if I want to run my CaRx.

 

[justingraham]

Terrance do you have Joseph Caparattas phone number? When he was at reefapoliza I was talking to him and I beleive he said something about this topic. I think he might be the most knowledgeable person for you to talk to.

You could also take a triton test right now set up your tank so it's 50% ca reactor and 50% triton and in a month or two send in a test. Then you would see how far behind you are on each of the trace elements and then divide by 30 to find out what to add each day to make sure ur traces are being replenished

Beyond that I'm kinda tapped out on ideas but do agree that any tank above 150-180 gallons range I s expensive to run the triton way

Also it is hard to find out there but with tons of testing and picking people's brains

Roughly 1 ml of the elements will raise the dkh .1 for every 50 gallons
Example you have a 100 gallon tank and you are consuming .8 dkh a day you will be doseing 16ml of the triton elements

 

[Terence]

@uniquecorals - Joe, maybe you could chime in here. I think there really needs to be a specific recipe to follow for folks like me with a perfectly running CaRx who want to go the Triton way. It is very confusing. I need a very specific roadmap.

 

[frenchie01]

I think the point of the triton method is to dose everything and move away from your carx.
If you like running the carx then use a different method.
Many people in the uk have to mix and match the triton method with other methods and have not succeeded as well.

 

[Terence]

I think the point of the triton method is to dose everything and move away from your carx.
If you like running the carx then use a different method.
Many people in the uk have to mix and match the triton method with other methods and have not succeeded as well.

If that is the case, I would say that it is not going to be very successful for hobbyists aquariums over 150g that want a lot of SPS and/or LPS corals. I say that only because the economics won't work for most people. At the label dosage - which is probably not enough for a heavily stocked established tank - on my system one set of bottles will last 22 days. That's $2.36 a day. If my tank takes double that, its approaching $5/day or $150/mo.

This is why I would like to work with them for a VERY specific, proscribed protocol whereby we can get our major trace from a Calcium Reactor and our minor traces from the bottles dosed with a set of 1-4 dosing pumps.

 

[phillygeeks]

This is why I would like to work with them for a VERY specific, proscribed protocol whereby we can get our major trace from a Calcium Reactor and our minor traces from the bottles dosed with a set of 1-4 dosing pumps.

This is interesting and will follow along, as I am considering a system for a new build in the next year

 

[ReeferBud]

The issue of cost effectiveness at larger aquarium sizes has always been an issue with other systems , such as Zeo, and now Triton. I've had 200+ gal tanks and now have a 500 gal and I've tried many things over the years but have never stuck with any of them because of high cost and questionable results.

My guess is that additives are priced such that it's relatively affordable for tanks that fall around the average of what people have, which is nowhere near 500 gal. Price elasticity is pretty high for these things. Therefore, people with large systems fall outside the target and unfortunately don't participate, unless you're willing to pay an inordinate amount to follow a certain company's system, which some people do. For the additive companies, this is the best approach, it maximizes their unit profitability while capturing a large portion of the market.

 

[mic209]

Terence, I've been trying to get through this thread for the past 2 weeks to find out if you are still using the Dos with your Calcium Reactor. I've made it to page 41 and I give up, lol. So are you still using the dos with your CaRx? I'm interested in doing the same. Is it as simple as splitting the effleunt line between the 2 heads and running each side 30 minutes at a time?

 

[Terence]

This is interesting and will follow along, as I am considering a system for a new build in the next year

Thanks!

The issue of cost effectiveness at larger aquarium sizes has always been an issue with other systems , such as Zeo, and now Triton. I've had 200+ gal tanks and now have a 500 gal and I've tried many things over the years but have never stuck with any of them because of high cost and questionable results.

My guess is that additives are priced such that it's relatively affordable for tanks that fall around the average of what people have, which is nowhere near 500 gal. Price elasticity is pretty high for these things. Therefore, people with large systems fall outside the target and unfortunately don't participate, unless you're willing to pay an inordinate amount to follow a certain company's system, which some people do. For the additive companies, this is the best approach, it maximizes their unit profitability while capturing a large portion of the market.

I think there can be a happy medium. That is, a system whereby the macro elements are provided to big systems via the CaRx, and the micro elements are provided by a highly tuned system like Triton. I am not a cheapskate when it comes to my aquarium, but I would have a hard time ponying up $150-$200/mo and ditching my CaRx. That said, if I could use my CaRx and have a new incremental cost of $50-$75/mo to go from having a good, successful reef to one that is amazing, I would do that.

Terence, I've been trying to get through this thread for the past 2 weeks to find out if you are still using the Dos with your Calcium Reactor. I've made it to page 41 and I give up, lol. So are you still using the dos with your CaRx? I'm interested in doing the same. Is it as simple as splitting the effleunt line between the 2 heads and running each side 30 minutes at a time?

Yes, I still use it, not necessarily advocating it. It works great, just a bit noisy but thats OK because it is downstairs under my house. I use just one pump and it is basically on for just under a minute, and off for two. I love the controllability aspect.

One could also go the route you mention, but you still would not be running continuous. There is a way to run continuous, but I am not going to push it out here because the DOS and its pumps/motors were not designed for continuous use.

 

[Terence]

Just tested Nitrates this morning - finally back down to no more than 5. All other parameters are good. Running the tank around 7.5dKH now in prep for my 50/50 set up of Triton "other methods" dosing.

 

[Tristren]

Would the @Aquaforest system be better for you then? They have the recipe available for mixing their main dosing system from the powdered components that you can buy separately, complete with instruction videos. That should make it much much easier to lower just the macro elements and keep the trace levels you need.

There seem to be plenty of large and impressive tanks running their system in Europe (based on their YouTube channel) and they seem more interested in experimenting with hybrid solutions. That can be a good thing or a bad thing, but for an "advanced user" like you it might be a better bet.


Tony