Greybeard's Rant on vendors selling sick animals
- Thread starter Greybeard
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Cites doesn't enforce squat. I keep dart frogs & they allow Brazil to be ransacked....well unless it's a monkey or something. They smuggle them thru Europe. They're aware but will not enforce
True. I have no other solution but something does need to be done.
A relatively new fish store by me was low on stock and said to stop in on the day they get a shipment as people buy straight from the boxes. Doing that actually drove me from the shop. When I got there they had fish in bins to drip acclimate them, but there was dead loss in the bins as well. I understand there will probably be some dead loss in a shipment, but why in the world would you have them in with the live fish out on your shop floor?
This was too bad as the shop actually seamed promising and wasn't too far from me, about 40 minutes.
This was too bad as the shop actually seamed promising and wasn't too far from me, about 40 minutes.
codycolina707
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little more effort would be nice even adding like a extra charge for them quarantining the fish before sending i wouldn't mind buying the fish having them quarantine it for a month.I mean its not like everyone can just have 3 tanks running at all times which is what you need to actually quarantine everything
codycolina707
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ya my only lfs within 100 miles that sells saltwater always has a couple dead fish in the tanks when i come in nothing crazy but like chromis or what not needless to say i dont buy fish from them too often
Camino Reefer
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This is why 99% of the fish I have came from other reefers who have kept the fish healthy and essentially quarantined them for me. Being new to this hobby (coming on a year now), the last thing I want is to introduce a parasite-infected fish into my tank. The three times I have bought fish from fish stores, two died in quarantine. They would not eat. The third one is in quarantine now, a Gem Tang. So far, it's doing well on her third week of copper treatment.
Businesses would have to put quality over quantity in order to supply properly-quarantined, healthy fish to the public. Like most things in life, it takes a lot more effort and self-control to strive for quality and perfection.
Businesses would have to put quality over quantity in order to supply properly-quarantined, healthy fish to the public. Like most things in life, it takes a lot more effort and self-control to strive for quality and perfection.
I disagree, Back in the 80's I had a Prized Discus tank, I was Paying $45 for quarter sized fish and up to 100 for lemon sized
fish. About the same as today, When my LFS sold me bad fish and wiped out my tank HE made it right! Today fish are cheaper and the fishes' health is on you. BTW I switched to salt back then and SW fish prices was about the same as today.
I think
Apples to oranges. Discus, and in fact many of the most expensive freshwater fish, are captive-bred. Much easier to prevent and control disease when you have control over the entire life cycle of a fish. Not so with most saltwater fish, where the vast number of unknowns makes it much more difficult to guarantee the life of a fish. Did it have diseases when it was caught? Don't know. Does it still have diseases? Don't know. Do any of its tank mates have diseases? Don't know. Which parasites are lying dormant in its stomach or on its skin? Don't know. The only way to be reasonably sure is to quarantine them and treat them for all the common ailments... a lengthy process in which some fish will die, and during which you'll be incurring costs throughout the process.
I know of a few that claim to have clean fish - Among the Reef, Marine Collectors, TSM, and a not-proud fish who's been posting in this thread. There aren't many of them, and they charge a premium for the service; accordingly, they also typically focus on fish that are going to be expensive anyhow. At ATR, for example, the cheapest fish I saw in their current stock was a gem tang for $700; most of them were comfortably into the four figures.
Honestly, government regulations are the only way that I can ever see pre-sale treatment and conditioning becoming the norm rather than the purview of a few high-end retailers who (justifiably) charge more for their fish. Absent external forces, why would merchants voluntarily increase their costs and lower their sale volumes for something that the hobby as a whole isn't even asking for?
Our hobby has spoken: We'd rather pay less for fish and shoulder the responsibility for quarantining and treating potential diseases ourselves. Actually, that second part is a part of why we don't see many retailers offering this kind of service: A very common sentiment I see is, "The only QT I trust is my own." So it raises the costs to merchants, increases prices of fish, and in the end many of the people who place the most emphasis on QT and claim to want the service the most still do their own QT.
Changing subjects - comparing this to dogs and cats is really not a fair comparison. For one thing, dogs and cats breathe air. They don't get snatched from their forests and deserts, shoved into a small bag of air, and shipped down into the ocean to live in terrariums for interested mermaids. For another, there are actual government regulations - those things that we think would kill the SW fish trade - that govern the condition that dogs and cats must be in before being sold/adopted. For a final one, plenty of dogs and cats do in fact have diseases and parasites. But we can take them to the vet and find out exactly what's wrong with them and give them concentrated, targeted treatments for whatever's ailing them. Flea shampoo, heartworm medication, medicated eye drops, vaccines. It's a world above what we have available for our fish.
Back where it all began
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I’m very fortunate to have a lfs that is incredible. The main difference is that they realize that they are selling a life form and not just a “fish.” Too many places and people view fish as expendable, not really”alive.” After all , they eat them. Different for dogs etc. my lfs treats each fish as it should be treated, that’s with respect and that’s how I treat mine. They are not a commodity, but a living creature that demands proper care. This seems to be where I see the hobby declining- not recognizing that these creatures need to be treated with respect for their existence.
Thales
Valuable Member
Because people eat fish, and people catch and kill them for fun. It is really hard to say these fish are important and should be treated well, but these fish you can nail to a board and take trophy selfies.
I discuss it in more detail here if you are interested:
Skeptical Reefkeeping Part 7: A look at Ethics - The Rich Ross
From Reefs Magazine By Richard Ross Ethical discussion about almost every area of reefkeeping has been a part of the hobby for as long as the hobby has existed – What size tank do I need to meet my animals’ needs? Are some animals better left in the ocean? Do I really need a separate […]
therichross.com
Well I have sort of been one to find sick fish and buy them cheap. I have a purple tang that I am pretty sure had velvet when I bought him, that was at least 1.5 years ago. He has one eye that is cloudy but other than that is very heathy. I attribute his survival to feeding, live black worms live white worms, fresh clams, sometimes rods food, nori. But never pellets.
To build of what Greybeard’s said, why should the consumer be tasked with ensuring an animal they just purchased is healthy? It’s kind of a backwards system if you think about it. I don’t go to a dog breeder and pick out a puppy and the breeder just cuts it loose without provide a clean bill of health. Then why should the burden not be on the seller to ensure proper health before they are allowed to sell the animal? Why should there be such a steep “cost to play” for this process such as that of sellers like MC? Personally, the reason why nothing is being done is not because of the select few that ARE willing to do something nor the majority that ARE NOT, it’s a result of the lack of intrinsic value most of the general public has for fish as they compare to cats and dogs. Thoughts?
BuBBly FiSh
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I am fortunate to live near that fish place that pet place. They always quarantine the fish before they sell them. By quarantine I mean low salinity water and observe them for several days before they are willing to sell them, Folks online buying for this hobby is the worst way to buy fish and corals. Sure those pictures look good on the internet but that is only because they use very expensive cameras, lighting, and lenses. The more you buy from a local pet store the more local pet stores will pop up.
Bruce Burnett
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I see all these comments and I have never QT in 30 plus years. The only time I had fish die within the first 1-3 days was a shipment on the UPS truck all day with outside temps above 120 degrees. I have had tang show ich but it would be gone within a week. I have had fish die for other reasons but my fault mostly jumping out of tank or a bully tank mate.
It’s a personal choice. I can’t properly QT at home because I have to travel a bit. I can set up someone to feed my fish, but of course they can’t perform QT/observation.
So I buy fish from vendors that QT according to proper QT protocols. I have no problem with the prices I find on quarantined fish. I feel the prices are very reasonable considering it pays for meds, labor, expertise & time.
I’m a ‘fish’ person. So I will set money aside to get a special fish I want. But I cringe at the thought of a frag over$50 (let alone over$100). I would rather buy a large cheap toadstool instead. I do have a QT tank designated for corals/inverts BTW. The coral/invert QT tank, I can handle myself.
So I buy fish from vendors that QT according to proper QT protocols. I have no problem with the prices I find on quarantined fish. I feel the prices are very reasonable considering it pays for meds, labor, expertise & time.
I’m a ‘fish’ person. So I will set money aside to get a special fish I want. But I cringe at the thought of a frag over$50 (let alone over$100). I would rather buy a large cheap toadstool instead. I do have a QT tank designated for corals/inverts BTW. The coral/invert QT tank, I can handle myself.
Seems like a lot of miss information and a lack of knowledge here ......
First of all exporters and wholesales don’t even feed the fish, AT ALL. The reason they don’t feed the fish is because this creates more work and costs more, and then they would have to clean the tanks more. This is also true with freshwater distribution centers. So if they won’t even bother feeding the fish, what makes you think they will quarantine and medicate it?
The reason Cats, dogs, freshwaterfish, etc come healthy is because they are bred in house where they can control every step of the process. In saltwater the only fish we are even capable of captive breeding are clowns and a couple gobies and I think they finally managed to get some yellow tangs going. So maybe 5% of the fish in the hobby can be gotten aqua-cultured. By comparison 100% of freshwater fish and cats and dogs sold are captive bred.
The reality of the situation is that consumers are not willing to pay extra for healthier or aqua-cultured live stock. A great example is ORA farms they used to sell captive bred mandarin fish that would readily accept prepared foods. The retail price was$90 vs a wild caught one was$20. I called ORA farms the other day to ask about the mandarins and they told me that they stopped the breeding program due to lack of sales. So I find it really funny that people on this forum claim that they would be willing to pay more for quarantined fish when that is just not true.
From working in several fish stores over the years and frequenting many in my spare time the average customer mentality is always the same. I always hear the same thing “My fish died, can I get another one?” As an animal person this infuriates me. You should be asking “why did my fish die?” But that’s just how the world is these days, when something breaks you just go buy a new one. No one bothers fixing things anymore, everything is disposable. And I hate that people treat pets in the same manor.
Ps. if your not willing to quarantine your own fish you shouldn’t have a tank. It’s the same as adopting a cat or dog and refusing to take it to the vets to get your shots and health check up.
First of all exporters and wholesales don’t even feed the fish, AT ALL. The reason they don’t feed the fish is because this creates more work and costs more, and then they would have to clean the tanks more. This is also true with freshwater distribution centers. So if they won’t even bother feeding the fish, what makes you think they will quarantine and medicate it?
The reason Cats, dogs, freshwaterfish, etc come healthy is because they are bred in house where they can control every step of the process. In saltwater the only fish we are even capable of captive breeding are clowns and a couple gobies and I think they finally managed to get some yellow tangs going. So maybe 5% of the fish in the hobby can be gotten aqua-cultured. By comparison 100% of freshwater fish and cats and dogs sold are captive bred.
The reality of the situation is that consumers are not willing to pay extra for healthier or aqua-cultured live stock. A great example is ORA farms they used to sell captive bred mandarin fish that would readily accept prepared foods. The retail price was$90 vs a wild caught one was$20. I called ORA farms the other day to ask about the mandarins and they told me that they stopped the breeding program due to lack of sales. So I find it really funny that people on this forum claim that they would be willing to pay more for quarantined fish when that is just not true.
From working in several fish stores over the years and frequenting many in my spare time the average customer mentality is always the same. I always hear the same thing “My fish died, can I get another one?” As an animal person this infuriates me. You should be asking “why did my fish die?” But that’s just how the world is these days, when something breaks you just go buy a new one. No one bothers fixing things anymore, everything is disposable. And I hate that people treat pets in the same manor.
Ps. if your not willing to quarantine your own fish you shouldn’t have a tank. It’s the same as adopting a cat or dog and refusing to take it to the vets to get your shots and health check up.
My husband's best friend had stage 4 leukemia. For over a year we made trips out of state to see & emotionally support him, his wife & kids. He was treated in 3 different states. We thought he might beat it at some point. But he did not. We traveled to MD Anderson to be with wife & kids as they took him off life support.
So my decision not to do QT myself, was the responsible choice. I have a tank set up so I can do a hospital tank at any time. I have a cabinet with emergency fish meds. But my fish are pets & they provide us comfort. Our tank has provided us a lot of solace. If I had not used a responsible QT vendor, I would still not have fish. So be careful in making blanket statements that if you don't QT yourself, you should not have a tank. Ask any member that knows me, I am a devoted caretaker to my pets.
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I see that you’re from Westchester NY. Which LFS does offer quarantined fish for sale in our area that you trust? Do you still quarantine/observe before you add them to your display tank?
Because people eat fish, and people catch and kill them for fun. It is really hard to say these fish are important and should be treated well, but these fish you can nail to a board and take trophy selfies.
I discuss it in more detail here if you are interested:
Skeptical Reefkeeping Part 7: A look at Ethics - The Rich Ross
From Reefs Magazine By Richard Ross Ethical discussion about almost every area of reefkeeping has been a part of the hobby for as long as the hobby has existed – What size tank do I need to meet my animals’ needs? Are some animals better left in the ocean? Do I really need a separate […]
Waste not want not. We're talking about vendors providing diseased poor quality animals. So how are you suppose to get better quality if the supplier/end user both view these animals as flushable? Doing the same thing repeatedly expecting different results isnt a bright way of doing things.
Oh well I have a 14 day guarantee and if they don't honor it I'll go on r2r to gripe about it lol
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