Hannah checkers - how much do you trust/like them?

[Hanna Instruments]

@Dana Riddle reviewed our HI713 and compared results to a different more expensive Hach spectrophotometer.

His article states:

"First of all, the results shown here are simply comparisons of those gathered by different analytical means. No standards were tested, and I am operating on the assumption that results of Hach's EPA-approved methods and a 'laboratory-grade' spectrometer are most accurate. In addition, only one Hanna instrument each was used in these comparisons.

Water, gathered from a functioning marine fish-only aquarium, was used for the testing.

Samples tested for phosphate were gathered in acid-washed glassware and analyzed within a few hours' time. Initial analyses indicated the phosphate content was at the upper detection limits of both instruments used (a Hach DR2800 spectrometer and the Hanna HI-713 colorimeter). Simple dilution with deionized water brought the phosphate to concentrations spanning the full range of both instruments and to levels realistically found in many reef aquaria. The Hanna and Hach devices both use the ascorbic acid chemistry method for analyses.

As discussed in detail in the Methods and Materials section, the results from the Hanna Checker were compared to analyses reported by a Hach 2800 spectrometer and ascorbic acid reagent. The results are shown in Figure 4.

Dana wrote in the article on Advanced Aquarist:

Hanna Phosphate Checker
These observations apply to the Hanna Checker HI-713 (Low Range Phosphate):

Likes:

• Results compare very favorably with those generated by a much more expensive device
• Much less expensive than a full-blown spectrometer or photometer
• Easy to use and portable
• Results are generated in several minutes (including a 3-minute reaction time)
• The Checker incorporates a timer
• The procedure is simple - Add reagent, shake and bake for several minutes, and read results in parts per million as phosphate
• Replacement reagent is competitively priced
• Auto-shutoff
• Reagents work in fresh, brackish, and saltwater
• Reagents marked with expiration date
• Low Battery, Dead Battery, Under Range, Over Range, Inverted Cuvettes, High Light and Low Light errors are displayed when appropriate
• Small sample size (10 milliliters)
• Spare cuvette included
• Directions (but not MSDS) available online

Dislikes:

• Test results for phosphate are displayed for only 10 seconds after they are reported
• Multiple measurements are not possible without zeroing the instrument each time
• No Material Safety Data Sheet available
• Battery replacement requires a small screwdriver and removal of a tiny screw

Recommendation (Phosphate): Yes!

Footnote: To convert PO43 to P, divide by 3.066"

Update: We now have MSDS sheets available online

 

[David S]

@David S letting someone else use your Hanna to see if they get the same problem as you is not the same. And the point you may have missed was that you, I and mr death are all in good company....lots of folks have been through what you're going through.

Where did you buy your P Checker, BTW?

Can't recall for certain.
I bought it when they first came out. Usually I'm not an Adopter (early buyer) of most products as I prefer to find out what people think, but for what this purported to do, by a reputable company and at a reasonable price, how could you lose?
Pretty sure I found out about it through BRS but I checked my purchase history and didn't find it.
My guess is I bought it directly from Hanna. I believe this is likely because 1. the price was similar, if not identical to other retailers and 2. I recall absolutely no problems exchanging the Phosphate Checker for the ULR Phosphorus checker as per Hanna's recommendation.

This thread has generated some interest and there is certainly no real consensus of opinion, which is interesting. I plan to write something up, over the weekend, concerning the Hanna Phosphate/Phosphorus Checker describing the process, some of the pitfalls, and how to work around them.
Perhaps it could be of some use for those that are "on the fence" considering buying the product or it may aid those that have inconsistent results, that are not related to the Checker itself

 

[mcarroll]

I'm going a little off topic because I think this could be a good point in what has sorta become a bash-the-vendor thread...

One thing I would suggest, if possible in your area, is to shop locally. Handled tactfully, taking something back which generates a "user experience" like this for you ought to be 100% better at a LFS.

I don't know about after as much time since you bought yours, but when I was working at a LFS if you had bought it from us and immediately knew you didn't like it or couldn't get it to work right we would have worked something out. There are consumables and responsibilities to consider, so maybe or maybe not full money back, but something because I want you back shopping in the store for food and salt next week. We might have even stood there with you in the shop to show you how to do it....or find out first hand that it's a defect....whatever. We'd also just test your PO4 for you for $1. Loyalty. It's doubtful you share as many interests like that with any online establishment....just doesn't work like that....there, loyalty will usually take the form of Points.

I realize you may or may not have a good LFS....mine closed. Don't let yours close if you still have one.

2¢

 

[David S]

I'm going a little off topic because I think this could be a good point in what has sorta become a bash-the-vendor thread...

One thing I would suggest, if possible in your area, is to shop locally. Handled tactfully, taking something back which generates a "user experience" like this for you ought to be 100% better at a LFS.

I don't know about after as much time since you bought yours, but when I was working at a LFS if you had bought it from us and immediately knew you didn't like it or couldn't get it to work right we would have worked something out. There are consumables and responsibilities to consider, so maybe or maybe not full money back, but something because I want you back shopping in the store for food and salt next week. We might have even stood there with you in the shop to show you how to do it....or find out first hand that it's a defect....whatever. We'd also just test your PO4 for you for $1. Loyalty. It's doubtful you share as many interests like that with any online establishment....just doesn't work like that....there, loyalty will usually take the form of Points.

I realize you may or may not have a good LFS....mine closed. Don't let yours close if you still have one.

2¢

Well, I figured who better to buy it from then the manufacturer.
I guess I could have returned it for a refund, but I didn't and that's on me.
As far as the LFS, yes there are two in the NY area, but I doubt they had them at the time I bought them and quite honestly, if they did, it would have cost a lot more.

 

[bif24701]

why do you need to use it every single day??? you can't figure out how to make your tank stable?

Stability is never guaranteed. A swing in ALK will easily set back a tank full of acros. I do in fact have stability however the one day I do not can erase months of work/growth/progression. ALK is the one parameter that can do that in a very short period of time and can swing very rapidly.

 

[bif24701]

Why not get a calcium reactor and test while you are dialing it in, then set it and forget it?

Sure, you could go ahead and set and forget but that's exactly what you'll do, forget. You will forget to check the ALK and the CO2 tank will start to get low or regulator is off, god forbid a malfunction and they your up RTN river. Then I'll be right here taking 60 seconds checking my ALK and then enjoying my acros.

 

[Hanna Instruments]

Can't recall for certain.
I bought it when they first came out. Usually I'm not an Adopter (early buyer) of most products as I prefer to find out what people think, but for what this purported to do, by a reputable company and at a reasonable price, how could you lose?
Pretty sure I found out about it through BRS but I checked my purchase history and didn't find it.
My guess is I bought it directly from Hanna. I believe this is likely because 1. the price was similar, if not identical to other retailers and 2. I recall absolutely no problems exchanging the Phosphate Checker for the ULR Phosphorus checker as per Hanna's recommendation.

This thread has generated some interest and there is certainly no real consensus of opinion, which is interesting. I plan to write something up, over the weekend, concerning the Hanna Phosphate/Phosphorus Checker describing the process, some of the pitfalls, and how to work around them.
Perhaps it could be of some use for those that are "on the fence" considering buying the product or it may aid those that have inconsistent results, that are not related to the Checker itself

Feel free to reference these documents we have produced in your write up!

Phosphorus to Phosphate conversion table
http://hannainst.com/resources/aqua...phate-conversion-table--hanna-instruments.pdf

HI713 vs HI736: Which is right for you
http://hannainst.com/resources/aqua...ates-in-your-reef-tank--hanna-instruments.pdf

8 Checker Best Practices Blog
http://blog.hannainst.com/checker-best-practices

 

[rosshamsandwich]

I am happy to report that Hanna has contacted me, listened to my concerns, and is working to resolve my issues. I am grateful to Reef2Reef, Hanna, and Kevin Costa for helping me. Happy Reefing, everyone!

 

[rosshamsandwich]

Stability is never guaranteed. A swing in ALK will easily set back a tank full of acros. I do in fact have stability however the one day I do not can erase months of work/growth/progression. ALK is the one parameter that can do that in a very short period of time and can swing very rapidly.

that doesn't sound like a hobby. Sounds like more of a chore.

 

[Hanna Instruments]

I am happy to report that Hanna has contacted me, listened to my concerns, and is working to resolve my issues. I am grateful to Reef2Reef, Hanna, and Kevin Costa for helping me. Happy Reefing, everyone!

thank you for testing with Hanna and being a valued customer! Happy Reefing!

 

[mcarroll]

that doesn't sound like a hobby. Sounds like more of a chore.

It's possible that you can wind up working for the tank rather than the other way around. Whether we choose to keep it simple or go all byzantine is up to us. There's definitely no advantage of one method vs another....whatever works for your circumstance. If simpler is better for you, them make sure it's part of your plan, starting with the blueprints....design simplicity into it. Most tanks you're likely to see on a typical browse around R2R or the reefing-internet in general are pretty complex. Doesn't mean it's for you.

 

[RyanCSGO]

So I was using the lamotte alk test kit previously and switch a few weeks ago to the Hannah checker.

Tested my water a few moments ago and the results are as follows:

Hannah alk: 165 ppm (9.24) 1st test
Hannah alk: 162 ppm (9.072) 2nd test

Lamotte alk: 146 ppm (8.176) 1st test
Lamotte alk: 148 ppm (8.288) 2nd test

Salifert cal: 400 1st test
Salifert cal 410 2nd test

Based on what the "relative" alk would be to the cal level I feel like the Lamotte test would be more accurate?

Any input from anyone on this? I feel a 1dkh difference is pretty significant...

 

[RyanCSGO]

Self bump for input

 

[Hanna Instruments]

So I was using the lamotte alk test kit previously and switch a few weeks ago to the Hannah checker.

Tested my water a few moments ago and the results are as follows:

Hannah alk: 165 ppm (9.24) 1st test
Hannah alk: 162 ppm (9.072) 2nd test

Lamotte alk: 146 ppm (8.176) 1st test
Lamotte alk: 148 ppm (8.288) 2nd test

Salifert cal: 400 1st test
Salifert cal 410 2nd test

Based on what the "relative" alk would be to the cal level I feel like the Lamotte test would be more accurate?

Any input from anyone on this? I feel a 1dkh difference is pretty significant...

Hello Ryan,

Thanks for doing this comparison, our HI755 Marine Alkalinity Checker displays results as CaCO3, a popular unit for alkalinity. Our Checker uses an absorbance curve specifically for saltwater and I think LaMotte test kit can be used in either fresh or saltwater. The chemistry of our HI755 Checker makes it for saltwater only. Its possible that the pH end point they use for their test kit can lead to differences in alkalinity determination.

Our Checker has an accuracy statement of ±5 ppm (mg/L) ±5% of reading (HI755) so your results could be as between, around ±8ppm from your results.

We also sell validation kits for all of our Checkers to make sure the unit is functioning within their designated accuracy statement.

A big advantage for using a Hanna Checker is there little subjectivity in the process of analysis. We have a very simplified alkalinity test, there are no color changes to determine or drops to count. This leads to a higher rate of repeatable success and precision . The colorimetric method is a well-established method used by various producers of alkalinity testing equipment.

Also visit our blog to make sure you are following our 8 checker best practices such as indexing the cuvette in the same position every time, removing any air bubbles, finger prints or smudges from your cuvette.

If you are using a chemical test kit which uses a color change there are somethings you must do in order to adequately determine your end point.
1. Color must be observed under a full spectrum light (different light wavelengths can cause colors to appear differently)
2. Color must be observed under the same intensity light each time
3. Color should be observed against a white background
4. Make sure syringe is properly filled and you are not over/under tirtrating the sample
5. Some Chemical Test Kits for alkalinity require to observe any color change or a change to a specific color, make sure you know whether the kits wants you to observe a color shift in general or a shift to a specific color (i.e yellow to blue).

Hope this helps and thank you for being a valued Hanna customer! please let us know if we can help you with anything else!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Based on what the "relative" alk would be to the cal level I feel like the Lamotte test would be more accurate?

Any input from anyone on this? I feel a 1dkh difference is pretty significant...

There's no particular alk level one "expects" for a given calcium level.

 

[RyanCSGO]

Hello Ryan,

Thanks for doing this comparison, our HI755 Marine Alkalinity Checker displays results as CaCO3, a popular unit for alkalinity. Our Checker uses an absorbance curve specifically for saltwater and I think LaMotte test kit can be used in either fresh or saltwater. The chemistry of our HI755 Checker makes it for saltwater only. Its possible that the pH end point they use for their test kit can lead to differences in alkalinity determination.

Our Checker has an accuracy statement of ±5 ppm (mg/L) ±5% of reading (HI755) so your results could be as between, around ±8ppm from your results.

We also sell validation kits for all of our Checkers to make sure the unit is functioning within their designated accuracy statement.

A big advantage for using a Hanna Checker is there little subjectivity in the process of analysis. We have a very simplified alkalinity test, there are no color changes to determine or drops to count. This leads to a higher rate of repeatable success and precision . The colorimetric method is a well-established method used by various producers of alkalinity testing equipment.

Also visit our blog to make sure you are following our 8 checker best practices such as indexing the cuvette in the same position every time, removing any air bubbles, finger prints or smudges from your cuvette.

If you are using a chemical test kit which uses a color change there are somethings you must do in order to adequately determine your end point.
1. Color must be observed under a full spectrum light (different light wavelengths can cause colors to appear differently)
2. Color must be observed under the same intensity light each time
3. Color should be observed against a white background
4. Make sure syringe is properly filled and you are not over/under tirtrating the sample
5. Some Chemical Test Kits for alkalinity require to observe any color change or a change to a specific color, make sure you know whether the kits wants you to observe a color shift in general or a shift to a specific color (i.e yellow to blue).

Hope this helps and thank you for being a valued Hanna customer! please let us know if we can help you with anything else!

thanks for the feed back, ill pick up a validation kit as well. i definitely trust the test, just thought the difference was strange.

 

[RyanCSGO]

There's no particular alk level one "expects" for a given calcium level.

I think "relative" was a poor word.
Was referring to the "balanced" calcium. looking further into it, its definitely not speaking about the difference between alk and cal in the manner I originally thought.
just because I dose equal amounts at all times doesn't mean the balanced is going to identically match, correct?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think "relative" was a poor word.
Was referring to the "balanced" calcium. looking further into it, its definitely not speaking about the difference between alk and cal in the manner I originally thought.
just because I dose equal amounts at all times doesn't mean the balanced is going to identically match, correct?

Correct, and also it probably wasn't exactly balanced in the salt mix before any dosing. Some are way, way off of "balance".

 

[rosshamsandwich]

Thank you, Kevin Costa, for your superb customer service. Folks, if you are a hardcore reefer, please please please do NOT buy the Ultra Low Phosphate checker that reads in ppm. It's simply not accurate enough for your needs. What you need, if you are serious, is a Phosphorus Checker which reads in ppb. Period. Point blank. Thank you, again, to Kevin Costa for helping me solve the problem.

Just bought a Hanna reagent for alkalinity. The alkalinity checker is still the most accurate tester hands down. Have used Red Sea Foundation, API, Salifert, and Elos and they don't come close. I Have checked my alk checker against a handful of other reefers who bought the alkalinity checker and we all read the EXACT same numbers. The calibration department needs a raise!

 

[David S]

Thank you, Kevin Costa, for your superb customer service. Folks, if you are a hardcore reefer, please please please do NOT buy the Ultra Low Phosphate checker that reads in ppm. It's simply not accurate enough for your needs. What you need, if you are serious, is a Phosphorus Checker which reads in ppb. Period. Point blank. Thank you, again, to Kevin Costa for helping me solve the problem.

Just bought a Hanna reagent for alkalinity. The alkalinity checker is still the most accurate tester hands down. Have used Red Sea Foundation, API, Salifert, and Elos and they don't come close. I Have checked my alk checker against a handful of other reefers who bought the alkalinity checker and we all read the EXACT same numbers. The calibration department needs a raise!

Nice to hear about the reliability of the Alkalinity checker. Perhaps I'll check it out.
Getting back to the Hanna Phosphate checkers: It seems there are two camps here; one group of people that are very happy with the "consistent" results and another group that is unhappy with the "inconsistent" results. Are the "unhappy" people doing something wrong during their testing-as Hanna would have you believe.
It is my firm belief that both camps are correct in their testing results/observations. What it really comes down to is it's a problem with quality control.
You either got a fully functioning unit or a lemon (which I got twice).
There are always "lemons" associated with any product. The lemons for the Phosphate/Phosphorous checkers are probably higher than they should be.
Along those lines, I decided to have my water sampled by Triton to see what my Phosphate levels were.
It seems that using Red Sea, Salifert and Hanna Checker for testing PO4 results all led to some inconsistencies:
The Checker would give the most inconsistent results. On the day I submitted the results to Triton, I used the Checker, 3 times and got results of Zero (first time ever) 0.12 and 0.25. (In the years I've been using the Checker, I receive a result of 0.10 ppm or above about 75%. I know this is not accurate.
The Salifert kit is somewhat difficult to read but it seemed to give results ranging between .05 - .10 ppm. Somewhat more consistent but not what I would consider reliable.
The Red Sea Kit would ALWAYS show a PO4 level of 0.04 PPM. While this is consistent, the fact that it always indicates this number causes me to question the reliability of the results.

Anyway, I received the results from Triton, two weeks ago, and the results indicated a PO4 level of 0.013 PPM. (Compared to 0.oo8 PPM when I tested with them about 2 and a half years ago).
So this indicates to me that none of the test kits or checkers are very accurate, ASSUMING,of course that the Triton method for testing IS more accurate.
Along those lines I will stop wasting my money on reagents and test kits and consider sending my water in for periodic testing, and not just for Phosphate.