Has Anyone tried Tropic Marin Bio-Calcium or Carbo-Calcium

[Rybren]

Thanks, Lou. That does make sense.

It presumes that formate present in the water column isn't metabolized by bacteria. That seems odd to me.

It seems odd to me as well. Maybe I'm not understanding the process.

I switched from using Kalkwasser to CarboCalcium about 6 months ago. In that time, my Alk has remained steady at 8.0 +/- 0.1. In addition, I've had to stop dosing my DIY NOPOX because my nitrates had become undetectable whereas they had previously been a steady 5ppm. Since stopping the NOPOX, my nitrates have returned to a steady 5ppm.

If the corals are the only consumers of the formate, how is my alk remaining steady and where is the carbon dosing effect coming from?

 

[Lou Ekus]

Thanks, Lou. That does make sense.

It presumes that formate present in the water column isn't metabolized by bacteria. That seems odd to me.

It is quite complex. And not being in the lab, I don't have 100% of the information that my scientists in Germany, that are still studying exactly how it all works, have. I'll have more on this as time goes on. But it has to do with the coral polyp's demand for the carbonates. Again, I don't have all the pieces of the process yet. I'll be happy to share, as I learn what they know. It's all very interesting and really changing how we think about alkalinity supplementation in these tanks overall... More to come.

 

[Lou Ekus]

It seems odd to me as well. Maybe I'm not understanding the process.

I switched from using Kalkwasser to CarboCalcium about 6 months ago. In that time, my Alk has remained steady at 8.0 +/- 0.1. In addition, I've had to stop dosing my DIY NOPOX because my nitrates had become undetectable whereas they had previously been a steady 5ppm. Since stopping the NOPOX, my nitrates have returned to a steady 5ppm.

If the corals are the only consumers of the formate, how is my alk remaining steady and where is the carbon dosing effect coming from?

Interesting. While much of what you are assuming is true. I didn't really say that the corals are the ONLY consumers of the formate. There is also a theory, that if there is a lot of excess formate in the water column, then it "could" act as a carbon source for certain organisms. That metabolization, not necessarily resulting in carbonates. Your system "might" be an example of that hypothesis playing out.
You might try dosing a little less Carbocalcium, and see what happens!

 

[Bramzor]

@Randy Holmes-Farley, The question you are asking is a great one. It turns out that the answer is not as simple as we would like it to be… The conversion of the formate into alkalinity, happens largely within the coral polyps themselves. That means that the Carbocalcium essentially “bypasses” the process of formation of carbonates in the water column. So instead of boosting the alkalinity in the water column, which then gets taken out by the corals (as with traditional methods of supplementation). The formate conversion to carbonates supplies the needed carbonates to the coral without showing up as a rise in carbonates in the water column. This means that the rise in alkalinity, that we see with more traditional methods, doesn’t always happen as expected. If more Carbocalcium than the needed amount is added, much of the formate “hangs out” until the conversion is needed in the polyps. But we don’t measure formate with traditional alkalinity tests. This concept of this conversion happening within the polyp and not in the water column, is important in understanding the proper usage of the product.

For all of these reasons, it makes most sense to bring the alkalinity parameter into your desired range before starting the Carbocalcium. There is no down side to that, and it avoids confusion when the corals are still getting what they need, but the increase in alkalinity is not showing up in the water testing.

I hope this explanation made some sense.

So the risk of potential overdosing does exist? If you for example keep increasing the dosage because you do not notice an increase in KH, at some point this will cause issues. Do we know what kind of issues this will cause so we can identify an overdosage?

I personally increase dosage when KH starts to drop. I do make corrections with other products but I would feel a lot better if I would know where to look for, so basically the signs of an overdosage.

 

[Lou Ekus]

So the risk of potential overdosing does exist? If you for example keep increasing the dosage because you do not notice an increase in KH, at some point this will cause issues. Do we know what kind of issues this will cause so we can identify an overdosage?

I personally increase dosage when KH starts to drop. I do make corrections with other products but I would feel a lot better if I would know where to look for, so basically the signs of an overdosage.

There is a risk in the overdosing of ANYTHING, even salt or water.
We haven't seen any "signs of overdosing". For the most part, the excess formate just hangs out in the water until it is needed. In my post, I very intentionally mentioned that this "carbon dosing" effect of the excess formate is in theory only. We are still learning so much about this method. And there is still more to learn. The thing that we do know, is that if you follow the instructions, there is certainly no "risk". And even in the case of an overdose, risk is minimal, if that.

 

[Bramzor]

There is a risk in the overdosing of ANYTHING, even salt or water.
We haven't seen any "signs of overdosing". For the most part, the excess formate just hangs out in the water until it is needed. In my post, I very intentionally mentioned that this "carbon dosing" effect of the excess formate is in theory only. We are still learning so much about this method. And there is still more to learn. The thing that we do know, is that if you follow the instructions, there is certainly no "risk". And even in the case of an overdose, risk is minimal, if that.

True, I love the product but I would prefer to have a visible way to notice when there is an excess of formate building up. For example if you do not do any water changes, it might build up to a very high level.
I might throw a large amount of AllForReef in a bucket with some used salt water, just to see what starts to grow. I expect that it could grow some white stuff as it did before in my dosing containers and what is currently growing on the outside of my pumps. I expect that it might have something to do with the combination of AllForReef and Plus NP as both have a carbon source. I might have dosed a bit too much of Plus NP (same thing, not possible to measure so visible sign might be nice).

 

[Lou Ekus]

True, I love the product but I would prefer to have a visible way to notice when there is an excess of formate building up. For example if you do not do any water changes, it might build up to a very high level.
I might throw a large amount of AllForReef in a bucket with some used salt water, just to see what starts to grow. I expect that it could grow some white stuff as it did before in my dosing containers and what is currently growing on the outside of my pumps. I expect that it might have something to do with the combination of AllForReef and Plus NP as both have a carbon source. I might have dosed a bit too much of Plus NP (same thing, not possible to measure so visible sign might be nice).

While I do agree with most of what you are saying, I don't think the formate can build up to a huge excess under normal dosing conditions. So it shouldn't really be an issue that would come up.
But if you do some testing, I would certainly be interested in your results.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think it unlikely substantial formate will accumulate except perhaps when first dosing and bacteria have not multiplied to consume the formate.

I would point out one terrible implication of the hypothesis that formate is taken up by corals and used directly and that bacteria or other organisms do not break down the formate to product bicarbonate: if that is the dominant process, it makes alkalinity testing nearly useless as a way to gauge how much should be dosed. Bicarbonate and alkalinity itself have become passive bystanders.

 

[Rybren]

I think it unlikely substantial formate will accumulate except perhaps when first dosing and bacteria have not multiplied to consume the formate.

I would point out one terrible implication of the hypothesis that formate is taken up by corals and used directly and that bacteria or other organisms do not break down the formate to product bicarbonate: if that is the dominant process, it makes alkalinity testing nearly useless as a way to gauge how much should be dosed. Bicarbonate and alkalinity itself have become passive bystanders.

I would think that there must be some process going on besides coral consumption of the formate. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I am dosing nothing other than carbocalcium and my alk is holding steady. This is a 12+ year old mature mixed reef.

 

[Bramzor]

I would point out one terrible implication of the hypothesis that formate is taken up by corals and used directly and that bacteria or other organisms do not break down the formate to product bicarbonate: if that is the dominant process, it makes alkalinity testing nearly useless as a way to gauge how much should be dosed. Bicarbonate and alkalinity itself have become passive bystanders.

I noticed using the product that if consumption goes up, it starts to lower alkalinity. So you still have to measure alkalinity just to make sure it does not drop. If it does go down, Carbocalcium dosage has to be increased and a correction has to be made using another product. Takes a long time for it to drop though. So it feels like a safer way to stabilize alkalinity because, the corals are not using it anymore as long as the formate is in the tank and seems you cannot overdose and raise the value anyway.

So no more chasing numbers.... Just checking KH every (few) weeks to make sure it does not drop but keeps steady, that's it. Was not able to keep levels consistent before but using CarboCalcium or AllForReef, it's super stable and easy. Feels like cheating though.

 

[JohnMzreef]

I don't have my carbo-calcium jar in front of me but doesn't it say to adjust dose based on alkalinity testing? Is there an official revised instruction for this product?

I like the product and seem to have a good routine with it but I also have been dosing 2 part solution (12 hours opposite) based on alkalinity testing because it seems like increased carbo-calcium dosing does cause bacterial film.

Also, fwiw I do have difficulty maintaining nitrate level in this tank. (29 gallon, lots of coral, only 2 cardinalfish, plenum and dsb, no skimmer,)

 

[Lou Ekus]

I think it unlikely substantial formate will accumulate except perhaps when first dosing and bacteria have not multiplied to consume the formate.

I would point out one terrible implication of the hypothesis that formate is taken up by corals and used directly and that bacteria or other organisms do not break down the formate to product bicarbonate: if that is the dominant process, it makes alkalinity testing nearly useless as a way to gauge how much should be dosed. Bicarbonate and alkalinity itself have become passive bystanders.

If you are not dosing enough Carbocalcium, then the formate will run out and the measured alkalinity will start to drop. That indicates that you need more. If you are dosing way too much, then the calcium will start to rise too high and you dose less. As you know, the alkalinity and carbonates have other functions as well. So they are not totally passive bystanders.
But the concept that the traditional alkalinity testing alone, is not the best way to gauge Carbocalcium dosing is absolutely correct!

 

[Lou Ekus]

I don't have my carbo-calcium jar in front of me but doesn't it say to adjust dose based on alkalinity testing? Is there an official revised instruction for this product?

I like the product and seem to have a good routine with it but I also have been dosing 2 part solution (12 hours opposite) based on alkalinity testing because it seems like increased carbo-calcium dosing does cause bacterial film.

Also, fwiw I do have difficulty maintaining nitrate level in this tank. (29 gallon, lots of coral, only 2 cardinalfish, plenum and dsb, no skimmer,)

There should not really be a need for the 2 part. And if alkalinity drops, it's a sign you need more Carbocalcium. We haven't seen the Carbocalcium, even in larger doses, causing any bacterial or algae growth. So it may be a coincidence, and I would look for possible other causes.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for the comments, Lou.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Of course at Tropic Marin we do not have the technical possibilities to do research with radioactive tracers and formate with isotopes of carbon, but I have done some literature research about marine microbiology in the last 1 1/2 decades.

Bacterial activity seems to be low in the water column of oligotrophic seawater and highest bacterial activity seems to be surface bound. This has to do with physical phenomena like the Reynolds number. Bacteria floating in the water have difficulties with insufficient water exchange in their surroundings because for them water seems at least as viscous as honey. This limits their ability for metabolic activity because this is dependend from exchange of water and dissolved substances therein. For surface bound bacteria water exchange is better because they are fixed and water is flowing by.

For sure the coral surface is a site of especially high bacterial activity due to the organic substances and nutrients excreted by the corals. So it may indeed be the case that much of the formate is converted to bicarbonate directly at the surface of the coral holobiont.

Besides that, always when calcium and alkalinity are added at the same time and in stoichiometric proportions, it is easier to maintain alkalinity than to raise alkalinity. Adding both at the same time tends to oversaturate water with calcium carbonate and to provoke precipitates.

Both effects may have led to the observation, that it is easy to maintain alkalinity at for example 8 dKH but it is much more difficult to raise and keep it at 9 dKH or beyond. The water of reef aquaria tends to stabilize at an alkalinity around its saturation which should not be exceeded by force with high dosings.

 

[lacrosseboss18]

I started using All For Reef in my office tank. 20 Gallon Waterbox. My Alk is at 7.2dkh and I would like it at 8dkh. Should I use another product to bring it up to 8 and then AllForReef to maintain it at that level. Then from there should I continue to dose AllForReef at say 4ml per day regardless of what my Alk tests at unless is starts to decrease? Ive been adding 1ml, 2ml, 3ml to see if it would change and would always come back at 7.2dkh Thanks

 

[Bramzor]

I started using All For Reef in my office tank. 20 Gallon Waterbox. My Alk is at 7.2dkh and I would like it at 8dkh. Should I use another product to bring it up to 8 and then AllForReef to maintain it at that level. Then from there should I continue to dose AllForReef at say 4ml per day regardless of what my Alk tests at unless is starts to decrease? Ive been adding 1ml, 2ml, 3ml to see if it would change and would always come back at 7.2dkh Thanks

Raising Alk is not just dosing more Alk as it will participate if the water is saturated. You cannot just dose more and hope that it will stay available. That's only possible if you have a balance and that balance does include other things like elevated Mg...

The second part however is correct. Dosing will keep it stable and if it starts to drop, you need to correct it again using another product and dose a bit more AllForReef daily.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Raising Alk is not just dosing more Alk as it will participate if the water is saturated. You cannot just dose more and hope that it will stay available. That's only possible if you have a balance and that balance does include other things like elevated Mg...

Usually it is pretty close to just dosing more.

 

[Lou Ekus]

I started using All For Reef in my office tank. 20 Gallon Waterbox. My Alk is at 7.2dkh and I would like it at 8dkh. Should I use another product to bring it up to 8 and then AllForReef to maintain it at that level. Then from there should I continue to dose AllForReef at say 4ml per day regardless of what my Alk tests at unless is starts to decrease? Ive been adding 1ml, 2ml, 3ml to see if it would change and would always come back at 7.2dkh Thanks

What Bramzor said is exactly correct:

The second part however is correct. Dosing will keep it stable and if it starts to drop, you need to correct it again using another product and dose a bit more AllForReef daily.

 

[User1]

I noticed using the product that if consumption goes up, it starts to lower alkalinity. So you still have to measure alkalinity just to make sure it does not drop. If it does go down, Carbocalcium dosage has to be increased and a correction has to be made using another product. Takes a long time for it to drop though. So it feels like a safer way to stabilize alkalinity because, the corals are not using it anymore as long as the formate is in the tank and seems you cannot overdose and raise the value anyway.

So no more chasing numbers.... Just checking KH every (few) weeks to make sure it does not drop but keeps steady, that's it. Was not able to keep levels consistent before but using CarboCalcium or AllForReef, it's super stable and easy. Feels like cheating though.

This is interesting. May be unrelated but I wonder if this is what I'm seeing when I switched over to AFR. I was originally dosing ESV 2 part and came across the AFR recipe. I thought it looked fun to make so wanted to try it out. Love the stuff. Anyway using the 2 part I was able to keep my ALK pretty steady at 8.1 - 8.3. After switching and starting the initial dose using TM's calculator my ALK dropped steadily every couple days. I increased AFR and then it started to climb so I backed it off. Started to drop again so I started to dose 2 - 3 ml of alk daily over 24 hours. Now it seems to be a bit more back to normal.

So in my case similar to what you said by using another product to keep alk steady in my case. It very well could be that I do not have ARF at the proper dose yet. Is at least my guess.