Has Anyone tried Tropic Marin Bio-Calcium or Carbo-Calcium

[hart24601]

Thank you so much for the detailed answer!
It sounds like an odd request but that is handy information for anyone that has been carbon dosing, and that amount is pretty much what I was dosing just for filter feeders, not for nutrient control so another doser is free!
So far so good with the mix at home all for reef, I can see why it’s so popular.

 

[Stoney]

@Hans-Werner, any chance you could address this post? Thanks.

On an unrelated note, does anyone know if it's safe to add soda ash or sodium bicarbonate to carbo calcium? For some reason most of my tanks consume slightly more alkalinity than calcium and I was thinking I could add soda ash to carbo calcium to precipitate into calcium carbonate and slightly reduce the calcium levels. Is there any reason this wouldn't work? Or is there a better way to achieve this?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Hans-Werner, any chance you could address this post? Thanks.

You cannot add an alk supplement to it. You will precipitate calcium carbonate.

 

[Stoney]

You cannot add an alk supplement to it. You will precipitate calcium carbonate.

Right, but I was thinking I could intentionally precipitate some of the calcium to increase the ratio of formate. Would that cause any other issues?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Right, but I was thinking I could intentionally precipitate some of the calcium to increase the ratio of formate. Would that cause any other issues?

Starting to sound complicated,but that could possibly work. It might precipitate some magnesium or trace elements too.

 

[Stoney]

Starting to sound complicated,but that could possibly work. It might precipitate some magnesium or trace elements too.

Good to hear. I'm using carbo calcium without trace elements and I'll be sure to add magnesium after soda ash. By the way, just wanted to say thanks for everything you do. I've been reading your posts and articles for over a decade now and I can't count the number of times I've been curious about a topic only to find an objective, concise write up from you. This forum really needs a 'buy a beer' function because I feel like I've gotten away with theft haha. Seriously though, I see you as a beacon of truth in an industry full of snake oil. Thanks again Randy, have a good one.

 

[Rybren]

I was down in Cambridge 8 or 9 years ago and tried to hook up with Randy to buy him a beer (or 6) on behalf of all of his fans. Unfortunately, it didn't come to pass.

 

[Hans-Werner]

@Hans-Werner, any chance you could address this post? Thanks.

I do not recommend to add soda ash or sodium bicarbonate to the Carbo-Calcium solution since this would cause precipitates as Randy already mentioned.

Instead of adding sodium carbonate or bicarbonate to the solution, why not making a second solution and dosing it directly to the tank and reducing the dosage of Carbo-Calcium?

 

[Stoney]

I do not recommend to add soda ash or sodium bicarbonate to the Carbo-Calcium solution since this would cause precipitates as Randy already mentioned.

Instead of adding sodium carbonate or bicarbonate to the solution, why not making a second solution and dosing it directly to the tank and reducing the dosage of Carbo-Calcium?

One of the main reasons I switched to carbo calcium was to reduce the number of dosing pumps so a separate solution partially defeats the purpose. And I know I could manually dose it, but then my alk would swing between doses. If it was calcium that needed extra dosing that'd be fine, but I'd rather not have alkalinity swings.

And I understand that adding carbonates will cause precipitation. Like I mentioned earlier, I'm trying to precipitate some of the calcium to increase the ratio of formate.

 

[LadyTang2]

I think it unlikely substantial formate will accumulate except perhaps when first dosing and bacteria have not multiplied to consume the formate.

I would point out one terrible implication of the hypothesis that formate is taken up by corals and used directly and that bacteria or other organisms do not break down the formate to product bicarbonate: if that is the dominant process, it makes alkalinity testing nearly useless as a way to gauge how much should be dosed. Bicarbonate and alkalinity itself have become passive bystanders.

Do I have this right... your saying there is a hypothesis that corals eat the formate, could that be a bad thing for the coral? In this case it cannot be broken down to provide alk right?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Do I have this right... your saying there is a hypothesis that corals eat the formate, could that be a bad thing for the coral? In this case it cannot be broken down to provide alk right?

I'm not hypothesizing or suggesting there is any issue with the coral.

I'm just following the Tropic Marin claim to its logical end point: that measuring alkalinity isn't a useful way to gauge dosing, and especially not a way to know if you are overdosing. I personally do not believe the claim as stated (that bacteria are not breaking the formate down), so I'm not overly concerned about this either.

 

[hart24601]

I'm not hypothesizing or suggesting there is any issue with the coral.

I'm just following the Tropic Marin claim to its logical end point: that measuring alkalinity isn't a useful way to gauge dosing, and especially not a way to know if you are overdosing. I personally do not believe the claim as stated (that bacteria are not breaking the formate down), so I'm not overly concerned about this either.

I have been using it and I think you’re right Randy, of course I don’t think I have ever seen you be flat out wrong in reading your posts over 20 years (can that be?!?)

Dosing seems to follow normal 2 part tends. Alk and calcium fall, I adjust the doser, and it stabilizes. Just like with kalk or 2 part with small adjustments increasing over time for coral growth. Since the calcium tracks right along with the alk (using a trident) it seems to be the formate is broken down and easily measured. There is a slight delay when increasing dose as the calcium increases quickly and the alk catches up later as the formate is broken down.

 

[LadyTang2]

I'm not hypothesizing or suggesting there is any issue with the coral.

I'm just following the Tropic Marin claim to its logical end point: that measuring alkalinity isn't a useful way to gauge dosing, and especially not a way to know if you are overdosing. I personally do not believe the claim as stated (that bacteria are not breaking the formate down), so I'm not overly concerned about this either.

Why wouldnt alk be a useful gauge? You mean only if this claim from TM is true?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Why wouldnt alk be a useful gauge? You mean only if this claim from TM is true?

Yes. If the formate never converts into something detectable with an alk kit unless taken up by a coral, there would be no way to know if you are overdosing and formate is accumulating in the water.

 

[User1]

Regarding TM AFR I sent my quarterly ICP test to ATI and their recommendation noted Bromine is elevated. This is also one of the components and/or trace elements in TM AFR. I did not see this elevated in previous tests and the only thing I changed was going from ESV 2 part to TM AFR (DIY kit - not sure if that matters).

I really am not sure what the value represents in regards to good or bad. All I know that ATI has a reference value and it is higher I also know when reading TM AFR it lists Bromine as one of the elements(?) that it adds.

Maybe it isn't consumed or water changes are supposed to keep it in check? Just trying to understand both reference and measured value or if it matters. I need to send ATI a message and ask.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Regarding TM AFR I sent my quarterly ICP test to ATI and their recommendation noted Bromine is elevated. This is also one of the components and/or trace elements in TM AFR. I did not see this elevated in previous tests and the only thing I changed was going from ESV 2 part to TM AFR (DIY kit - not sure if that matters).

I really am not sure what the value represents in regards to good or bad. All I know that ATI has a reference value and it is higher I also know when reading TM AFR it lists Bromine as one of the elements(?) that it adds.

Maybe it isn't consumed or water changes are supposed to keep it in check? Just trying to understand both reference and measured value or if it matters. I need to send ATI a message and ask.

The reference value is, in this case, the value for NSW. I doubt there is anything wrong with your level. Bromide is not particularly important or toxic, and an excess like yours is not likely an issue.

 

[User1]

The reference value is, in this case, the value for NSW. I doubt there is anything wrong with your level. Bromide is not particularly important or toxic, and an excess like yours is not likely an issue.

Hi Randy. Thanks. I wasn't sure what the reference value was. I guess I should have known.

I will probably send another ICP off in about 3 months so will use it for a reference. If it continues to grow at least I'll know. Thank you again. Have a great day!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi Randy. Thanks. I wasn't sure what the reference value was. I guess I should have known.

I will probably send another ICP off in about 3 months so will use it for a reference. If it continues to grow at least I'll know. Thank you again. Have a great day!

You're welcome.

Happy Reefing.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Finally nearly every organic substance that is metabolized and completely oxidized biochemically will end up as either CO2 or bicarbonate, depending whether it was taken up as a neutral compound like sugar or as a charged ion like formate or acetate. Nothing disappears completely, this is a physical law.

Many organisms have the capability to oxidize formate, although in humans and primates it seems to be reduced.

If a coral would take up formate as a ion, after complete metabolic oxidation it would end up as bicarbonate and could be incorporated directly into the skeleton.

Corals, like other organisms, today are viewed as holobiont, consisting of an animal, algae and symbiotic bacteria. This means the job could also be done by bacteria and still be done by the coral holobiont.

 

[brewandreef]

Hello all,

I recently switched from kalk in the ATO to All For Reef in a high demand nano and am dosing 24 hours a day. I am getting a bit of a daily alkalinity swing and would like to dampen the swing by dosing mostly during the day while corals are consuming higher amounts of calcium and alkalinity. Therefore, I would like to start dosing, say, 6 hours before lights on, and end dosing a little after lights off.

Does this seem reasonable to assume that the biological metabolism of formate into alkalinity would occur in within a 6 hour timeframe? Or does anyone have any recommendations on how to minimize a daily alkalinity swing using AFR?