Have Hydros lost their way?

[BeanAnimal]

What’s amazing to me is the vote is nearly exactly 50/50. Wow. My 2 dollars worth (adjusted for inflation): I’ve only use hydros so I’m biased. I have a launch controller and wave maker light plus a bunch of dosing pumps and water level detectors. I’ve been nothing but impressed. But I am very tech savvy and feel comfortable with pro-sumer versus consumer grade gear. Glad I bought hydros and hope they will continue to endure.

The great thing is thst people assign value differently. There is nothing invalid about you likening the products or the prices.

I certainly wouldn’t consider their products pro-sumer by any stretch. If any products fit that description it would be the GHL ecosystem, but it doesn’t matter in context here.

 

[Peer.Boerner]

The great thing is thst people assign value differently. There is nothing invalid about you likening the products or the prices.

I certainly wouldn’t consider their products pro-sumer by any stretch. If any products fit that description it would be the GHL ecosystem, but it doesn’t matter in context here.

Fair point. Now I’ve got to research GHL! Looks very interesting. Thx for the tip!

 

[tmcca]

The big three as of now:

Apex in my opinion cheap made and ton of modules. However, you can do a lot with it and easiest in my opinion for advanced programming.

GHL best made hardware, they use expansion cards and looks neat. Programming a little weird as for advanced programming they use what they call gates. I am guessing still can't name these gates in which gets confusing. Have KH Director and there dosers well made. ION Director jury still out on that.

Hydros new player. Programming is easy but still can't do as much with it like GHL and Apex. Example for certain days for your pump can't do. Hydros disappointing so far to me.

If i had to choose a controller right now, I would pick GHL. Apex support is #1, Hydros #2 and GHL support isn't bad. GHL based in Germany so can be awhile before you get someone.

Tunze is for sure working on something! If Maven ever gets released can anyone willing to pay $2000 dollars on something you still have to test every so often to make sure those test accurate? Automatic testing not there at moment period.

 

[Jbrew]

The limitation is the software. You can DIY all this stuff fairly easy but your software is going to suck. That where most of this cost is at along with Automation Engineers make $225/hr (at least in the oil field they do) So putting one together as a commercial package just isnt cheap.

 

[tmcca]

The limitation is the software. You can DIY all this stuff fairly easy but your software is going to suck. That where most of this cost is at along with Automation Engineers make $225/hr (at least in the oil field they do) So putting one together as a commercial package just isnt cheap.

Apex software is the best with Apex Fusion that's why Apex is so popular.+

 

[jrhudson11]

FWIW, I love my Hydros controller. Is it expensive, yes... but everything else in this hobby is expensive. My LFS is selling GSP frags for $50!!! If you wanna be a reefer, you gotta pay to play. Not to mention tariffs, increased production and R&D costs over the last 4-8 years have been immense.

Hydros is a premium product. Their facebook user page is continuously monitored, and support tickets are always answered almost immediately. Did the fumble the ball by advertising the Maven way too early? Yes.... but I genuinely believe they are trying to make it perfect before its release.

My 2¢.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The limitation is the software. You can DIY all this stuff fairly easy but your software is going to suck. That where most of this cost is at along with Automation Engineers make $225/hr (at least in the oil field they do) So putting one together as a commercial package just isnt cheap.

I think that is drastically changing.

When I first started building controllers the core was a x86 PC with IO cards. The skillset was very little electronics and a lot of programming, much of it at the driver level. The tools were not forgiving and the interfaces were hard to build. Real time anything as a challenge too.

With the rise of DIYable microcontrollers, things become more of an electronics endeavor along with low level code. So we could do more, but it was more involved with two disciplines.

Since that time things like Arduino and similar full feature development boards brought things back to mostly learning to write code.

We are now at a point were a person with very little knowledge of computer programming can actually buy dev boards, plug in devices like stepper drivers, pH sensors, LED drivers, etc. and wire the together and with the help of LLMs write working code.

You no longer have to be a UX designer or business logic designer or data storage designer, the LLM can do most of that for you following accepted patterns.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I agree , but I can’t figure out where they are passing savings on.

Apparently, with the $800 price tag for dual pump capability that ship has sailed.

In the early days of my tank I used a few modified Kangaroo 324 medical feeding pumps for dosing. Eventually replacing the electronics with my own Atmega brains. Tubing sets were a pain so I moved on to Cole Parmer surplus heads and DC motors and the eventually Welco heads and steppers for my dosers. You certainly took it a step further and built your own!

Back in the day I hoarded a lot of masterflex pumps. Now those were built to last. I'm pretty sure I have a few stored away somewhere. But sold off most of them after versa came out.

Apex in my opinion cheap made and ton of modules.

Fair assessment, there are a few occasions when having them apart, I was baffled as to why they chose bottom of the barrel components. Certainly we as consumers pay the R&D price for them when certain components have mass failure.

What I've noticed lately, (and my account is limited because I haven't purchased anything from neptune recently) is that the newer components, mxm, dos qd, etc have far superior hardware compared to older modules and units since they utilize Ecotech’s pick and place machines for pcb manufacturing.

In terms of controllers, it doesn't seem like there's much profitability for anyone anymore. Especially for someone coming into that arena. Perhaps redsea or tunze can allocate funds from one area to expand into controllers but that's pretty risky.

The limitation is the software.

True, a company definitely invests a lot into creating their own ecosystem. What always erked me about it is why they choose the cloud based option? It's a huge risk for a consumer to spend thousands on products with the potential of them being worthless if the company folds or discontinues support. Or, possibly worse, decide to pass those costs to the consumer in the form of monthly subscription.

Automation Engineers make $225/hr (at least in the oil field they do) So putting one together as a commercial package just isnt cheap.

What if a merger happens and restructuring occurs and those software engineers who hold all the knowledge gets canned?

Case in point, mobius...

We are now at a point were a person with very little knowledge of computer programming can actually buy dev boards, plug in devices like stepper drivers, pH sensors, LED drivers, etc. and wire the together and with the help of LLMs write working code.

Ahhh yep... that's me. Hehe

 

[rtparty]

Hydros is a premium product.

How so? What is “premium” about them?

 

[ForumlyGuestUser]

Hydros is a premium product.

How so? What is “premium” about them?

Build quality, warranty, reliability, and customer service have all been incredible in my experience.

 

[braaap]

Build quality, warranty, reliability, and customer service have all been incredible in my experience.

Far from premium though. The cases are $10 on Amazon. The components are stripped out of product they distribute.

GHL is premium when it comes to controllers.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Far from premium though. The cases are $10 on Amazon. The components are stripped out of product they distribute.

I think the form factor is terrible because the chose the wrong type of cases, but I have no issue with using commodity cases.

You lost me with the components comment.

 

[JeffB418]

What I've noticed lately, (and my account is limited because I haven't purchased anything from neptune recently) is that the newer components, mxm, dos qd, etc have far superior hardware compared to older modules and units since they utilize Ecotech’s pick and place machines for pcb manufacturing.

I’m not entirely sure they are using ecotech’s line for Apex. I’ve seen that most recent head units are manufactured in China now. This screen cap was from a BRS/Neptune promo video a couple of months ago on YouTube. Second image is a flipped and zoomed in to the label to the top left of the serial label. And this isn’t the first unit I’ve seen with it either.

 

[Jbrew]

I think that is drastically changing.

When I first started building controllers the core was a x86 PC with IO cards. The skillset was very little electronics and a lot of programming, much of it at the driver level. The tools were not forgiving and the interfaces were hard to build. Real time anything as a challenge too.

With the rise of DIYable microcontrollers, things become more of an electronics endeavor along with low level code. So we could do more, but it was more involved with two disciplines.

Since that time things like Arduino and similar full feature development boards brought things back to mostly learning to write code.

We are now at a point were a person with very little knowledge of computer programming can actually buy dev boards, plug in devices like stepper drivers, pH sensors, LED drivers, etc. and wire the together and with the help of LLMs write working code.

You no longer have to be a UX designer or business logic designer or data storage designer, the LLM can do most of that for you following accepted patterns.

I dont disagree with that at all we are definately seeing improvements. However for the average joe its still not to their levels. People who can do things like this enjoy a little bit more of an unpolished UI so they can tweak it even more. The other people need it to do everything for them with a few clicks. I call them the apple crowd they just need it to work. The android crowd by nature wants to mess with it. So for guys like us its getting alot better. For normal people its still got aways to go.
I run Hydros and i want to get an Apex setup as well and then my plan is to DIY a system using an Allen Bradley PLC (only because i have like 3 of them sitting in my garage so its free lol)

 

[areefer01]

If you wanna be a reefer, you gotta pay to play.

No you don't. Hobbyist just need to be educated, smart, and budget. Not try and keep up with the Jones and socialites.

 

[tmcca]

GHL is the premium controller hands down. I wish never sold my GHL for the hydros. I did it because of the Maven and the fish controller. GHL now has fish controller. GHL to me is the best out there. Programming is a little hard to get the hang of though.

 

[areefer01]

I’m not entirely sure they are using ecotech’s line for Apex. I’ve seen that most recent head units are manufactured in China now. This screen cap was from a BRS/Neptune promo video a couple of months ago on YouTube. Second image is a flipped and zoomed in to the label to the top left of the serial label. And this isn’t the first unit I’ve seen with it either.

A lot of manufactures do this. Designed by Apple in California, assembled in China... /shrug

 

[Jasonak]

I use a 20 year old LiterMeter III and a pair of their slave pumps.

I still have one of these also for dosing. I don't think mines quite 20 years old but deffinetliy 15.
I also use Apex and Hydros and Apex for me is the better system.

 

[JeffB418]

A lot of manufactures do this. Designed by Apple in California, assembled in China... /shrug

Oh for sure, it was just interesting that Neptune merged with ecotech in PA but they aren't even utilizing their assembly lines here in the states. My guess is that these boards are so simple that turnkey manufacturing overseas is greatly cheaper than it would be to do in the states. Or there could be a line capacity issue in PA and adding new products to the line wouldn't be feasible. Gotta be careful with overseas manufacturing, you open yourself to counterfeit part risk since they control part sourcing and may not be as diligent in that process.

 

[areefer01]

Oh for sure, it was just interesting that Neptune merged with ecotech in PA but they aren't even utilizing their assembly lines here in the states. My guess is that these boards are so simple that turnkey manufacturing overseas is greatly cheaper than it would be to do in the states. Or there could be a line capacity issue in PA and adding new products to the line wouldn't be feasible. Gotta be careful with overseas manufacturing, you open yourself to counterfeit part risk since they control part sourcing and may not be as diligent in that process.

It is hard to innovate cheap labor and IP theft for sure. This hobby seems to have a lot of both.