Help! Dead fish, orb over 500 corals closing up

[daniel58]

Hi all, long time listener first time poster and I’m in trouble.

I have been loosing fish and I cannot find the problem

Rock has been cycled for about 15 years

I lost all my 12-15 year old fish a few months ago. I didn’t really think too much of it and put it down to high nitrate. over 100PPM



Plenty of water changes, kept tank running, all parameters seemed fine.



Added more fish which have been fine for a few months and then boom they died. Rapid breathing but very quick death.



Parameters

Ammonia 0

Nitrite 0

Nitrate 5ppm (with lower stocking of fish I have added neo nitrate occasionally to bring this up

Phosphate .06

Salinity 35ppm

Temp 25

Calcium 440

Magnesium 1400

Alkalinity 8.3

Ph 8.1 - 8.4



TDS RODI water 0 (I am on tank water and use an RO system, I don’t even have chlorine to begin with.

Aqua forest reef salt used. Also have tried a good known source for RO water from a mate.



Purchased new ro system. Had dual drinking water tanks emptied and cleaned



(orb over 500 without ozone)

I know people say do not chase this number but this is the only thing that’s off.

I can add Prime, corals look good for 24 hours then close back up, ORB drops with prime and everything is happy

24 hours back to the same problem and orb back over 500. This may or may not be related but is is the only thing that is weird.



I have also tried the orb probe in tank water from another tank and it dropped back to within range.



I have sometimes been dosing Red sea AB+ for the corals.



for Alk I have been dosing reef revolution alkalinity



for Calcium aqua forest



I have removed all magnets from the tank, have replaced heaters with different ones, removed and replaced all pumps in the tank anything electrical.



Tank has been grounded also



I added Cuprisorb saechem yesterday in case some thing had been leeching metal or something into the tank. This has not changed anything to date.



Have changed 600 litres of water this week alone



Tank does not have sand and I have removed about 50% of live rock this week and cleaned any debris buildup.



I have tried adding carbon



I have had an ICP test done which showed iodine at 2.2ppm

Could this be the cause, I don’t dose iodine.

No high metals or anything else way out of whack.

I need to do another icp test but we can only get them monthly in my country.



I am at a loss of what to do from here, it’s almost got me to the point of giving up after 15 years.



Happy to hear any solutions, help or other things to check and try. What else could it be the only thing that seems to cover it is prime but that isn’t a long term solution.

Thanks

 

[W31Olds]

Sorry to hear you lost all those fish and especially difficult when you've had them so long. Can you provide more information about your Tank and Setup, the fish you lost, and their behavior before dying and the days leading up to? Also, what fish if any survived and what fish you added that also died? Also, are you QT'ing your Fish? It could be a water quality problem but also could be disease or both. A video would also be helpful.
@Jay Hemdal
@vetteguy53081
@ReefSquad

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hi all, long time listener first time poster and I’m in trouble.

I have been loosing fish and I cannot find the problem

Rock has been cycled for about 15 years

I lost all my 12-15 year old fish a few months ago. I didn’t really think too much of it and put it down to high nitrate. over 100PPM



Plenty of water changes, kept tank running, all parameters seemed fine.



Added more fish which have been fine for a few months and then boom they died. Rapid breathing but very quick death.



Parameters

Ammonia 0

Nitrite 0

Nitrate 5ppm (with lower stocking of fish I have added neo nitrate occasionally to bring this up

Phosphate .06

Salinity 35ppm

Temp 25

Calcium 440

Magnesium 1400

Alkalinity 8.3

Ph 8.1 - 8.4



TDS RODI water 0 (I am on tank water and use an RO system, I don’t even have chlorine to begin with.

Aqua forest reef salt used. Also have tried a good known source for RO water from a mate.



Purchased new ro system. Had dual drinking water tanks emptied and cleaned



(orb over 500 without ozone)

I know people say do not chase this number but this is the only thing that’s off.

I can add Prime, corals look good for 24 hours then close back up, ORB drops with prime and everything is happy

24 hours back to the same problem and orb back over 500. This may or may not be related but is is the only thing that is weird.



I have also tried the orb probe in tank water from another tank and it dropped back to within range.



I have sometimes been dosing Red sea AB+ for the corals.



for Alk I have been dosing reef revolution alkalinity



for Calcium aqua forest



I have removed all magnets from the tank, have replaced heaters with different ones, removed and replaced all pumps in the tank anything electrical.



Tank has been grounded also



I added Cuprisorb saechem yesterday in case some thing had been leeching metal or something into the tank. This has not changed anything to date.



Have changed 600 litres of water this week alone



Tank does not have sand and I have removed about 50% of live rock this week and cleaned any debris buildup.



I have tried adding carbon



I have had an ICP test done which showed iodine at 2.2ppm

Could this be the cause, I don’t dose iodine.

No high metals or anything else way out of whack.

I need to do another icp test but we can only get them monthly in my country.



I am at a loss of what to do from here, it’s almost got me to the point of giving up after 15 years.



Happy to hear any solutions, help or other things to check and try. What else could it be the only thing that seems to cover it is prime but that isn’t a long term solution.

Thanks

Sorry to hear. Any inverts in the tank and how are they doing?
Do not add prime to the tank as it’s merely a water conditioner and does not remove ammonia as bottle implies

 

[Uncle99]

Maybe your DT has an infection?
Maybe ick?
Maybe velvet?

Fish were fine….rapid breath….then dead….

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi all, long time listener first time poster and I’m in trouble.

I have been loosing fish and I cannot find the problem

Rock has been cycled for about 15 years

I lost all my 12-15 year old fish a few months ago. I didn’t really think too much of it and put it down to high nitrate. over 100PPM



Plenty of water changes, kept tank running, all parameters seemed fine.



Added more fish which have been fine for a few months and then boom they died. Rapid breathing but very quick death.



Parameters

Ammonia 0

Nitrite 0

Nitrate 5ppm (with lower stocking of fish I have added neo nitrate occasionally to bring this up

Phosphate .06

Salinity 35ppm

Temp 25

Calcium 440

Magnesium 1400

Alkalinity 8.3

Ph 8.1 - 8.4



TDS RODI water 0 (I am on tank water and use an RO system, I don’t even have chlorine to begin with.

Aqua forest reef salt used. Also have tried a good known source for RO water from a mate.



Purchased new ro system. Had dual drinking water tanks emptied and cleaned



(orb over 500 without ozone)

I know people say do not chase this number but this is the only thing that’s off.

I can add Prime, corals look good for 24 hours then close back up, ORB drops with prime and everything is happy

24 hours back to the same problem and orb back over 500. This may or may not be related but is is the only thing that is weird.



I have also tried the orb probe in tank water from another tank and it dropped back to within range.



I have sometimes been dosing Red sea AB+ for the corals.



for Alk I have been dosing reef revolution alkalinity



for Calcium aqua forest



I have removed all magnets from the tank, have replaced heaters with different ones, removed and replaced all pumps in the tank anything electrical.



Tank has been grounded also



I added Cuprisorb saechem yesterday in case some thing had been leeching metal or something into the tank. This has not changed anything to date.



Have changed 600 litres of water this week alone



Tank does not have sand and I have removed about 50% of live rock this week and cleaned any debris buildup.



I have tried adding carbon



I have had an ICP test done which showed iodine at 2.2ppm

Could this be the cause, I don’t dose iodine.

No high metals or anything else way out of whack.

I need to do another icp test but we can only get them monthly in my country.



I am at a loss of what to do from here, it’s almost got me to the point of giving up after 15 years.



Happy to hear any solutions, help or other things to check and try. What else could it be the only thing that seems to cover it is prime but that isn’t a long term solution.

Thanks

Prime is a reducing agent, so it will decrease ORP.

Very often, ORP probes are out of calibration and give spurious readings, however, in this case, with other water testing good, yours might be fine.

I wonder what’s source of oxidants could be? Ozone, chlorine and elemental iodine can cause this.

 

[daniel58]

Maybe your DT has an infection?
Maybe ick?
Maybe velvet?

Fish were fine….rapid breath….then dead….

even so, but highly doubt this was the case, my ORB rises and corals have no polyp extension when orb goes back up. Tank is fishless now, but the fact orb keeps going up. my mushrooms literally turn outside in.

There was one fish that survived, I managed to get him out of the tank, he was upside down barely breathing, put him in the sump of my Nano tank and he has been fine ever since.

 

[daniel58]

Prime is a reducing agent, so it will decrease ORP.

Very often, ORP probes are out of calibration and give spurious readings, however, in this case, with other water testing good, yours might be fine.

I wonder what’s source of oxidants could be? Ozone, chlorine and elemental iodine can cause this.

Yeah orb is reading fine I believe considering can use it in another tank and its within range.

Corals will be happy for the day if I add prime.

Ive checked the cycle by adding Dr tims and ammonia is gone within a couple hours.

I done have ozone or chlorine.

The ICP came back with iodine at 2.2ppm. I don't know why or where this come from, although I checked my Alkalinity additive and it also had iodide in it. Could it just be from this? I don't dose massive amounts of
alk, like 15ml per day.

I just don't know what else could be causing this.

I have multiple tanks in the house and have no problem with the others.

 

[daniel58]

Sorry to hear. Any inverts in the tank and how are they doing?
Do not add prime to the tank as it’s merely a water conditioner and does not remove ammonia as bottle implies

I think pods and mysis shrimp have passed. I have brittle stars they still seem ok. Bristle worms are still alive.

I don't have ammonia, I can add ammonia and the bacteria gets rid of it within hours.

 

[daniel58]

Sorry to hear you lost all those fish and especially difficult when you've had them so long. Can you provide more information about your Tank and Setup, the fish you lost, and their behavior before dying and the days leading up to? Also, what fish if any survived and what fish you added that also died? Also, are you QT'ing your Fish? It could be a water quality problem but also could be disease or both. A video would also be helpful.
@Jay Hemdal
@vetteguy53081
@ReefSquad

Thanks. The fish I lost were tangs, yellow, naso, blue and an emperor angel.

Nothing had been added to the tank for years, I don't think it was a disease. This was very quick rapid death.

I added a fox face some clowns and PJ cardinals. They all passed overnight.

But regardless of the fish, ORB goes up my corals retract. Mushrooms turn outside in and close up. Prime opens them back up for the day. The next morning they are back to outside in.

Other tanks in the house are fine and the one survivor I got out of the tank (sail fin) is living in a nano just fine.

 

[W31Olds]

So, the first question I would ask is how do your Corals act after a WC? Not a small but a large one? Since you have other Tanks running without incident and you moved a Fish and it recovered, that pretty much rules out Disease. Have you tried moving a Coral to one of your other Tanks to see if it improves permantely? It sounds like you may be having episodes of low Oxygen causing the Fish Death. Another thought might be some Coral, Zoa, etc. may be releasing some toxin into the Water. Since you're in NZL maybe you have some unusual invert that's causing problems.

 

[daniel58]

So, the first question I would ask is how do your Corals act after a WC? Not a small but a large one? Since you have other Tanks running without incident and you moved a Fish and it recovered, that pretty much rules out Disease. Have you tried moving a Coral to one of your other Tanks to see if it improves permantely? It sounds like you may be having episodes of low Oxygen causing the Fish Death. Another thought might be some Coral, Zoa, etc. may be releasing some toxin into the Water. Since you're in NZL maybe you have some unusual invert that's causing problems.

Corals act fine after a water change, for about two days. I have moved some corals over and yes they recover and don’t have an issue. Would orb rise with low oxygen I thought it would be the other way around. Generally this issue happens overnight. Nothing locally is in the tank, all of our stuff is imported. There isn’t any random type of corals or inverts in there.

The icp test only showed iodine being way out of whack. When I do a home test it shows within range.

So the only things I have to go off is high orb and high iodine from an aqua forest icp test.

If it was low oxygen, why would prime help it?

I don’t think it’s anything in the house because the other tanks are fine.

 

[Biff0rz]

Can you share your latest icp?

When did you last calibrate your orb and / or buy a new one?

The fish dying overnight (and ruling out disease) seems o2 related... But the orb is saying otherwise. Something is not right there.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I think pods and mysis shrimp have passed. I have brittle stars they still seem ok. Bristle worms are still alive.

I don't have ammonia, I can add ammonia and the bacteria gets rid of it within hours.

With the inverts doing well, points to disease and not water quality.
How are you testing water?
Were fish gasping or labored breathing? Loss of appetite?

 

[daniel58]

I think pods and mysis shrimp have passed. I have brittle stars they still seem ok. Bristle worms are still alive.

I don't have ammonia, I can add ammonia and the bacteria gets rid of it within hours.

With the inverts doing well, points to disease and not water quality.
How are you testing water?
Were fish gasping or labored breathing? Loss of appetite?

But the fish that survived is fine in another tank. So that rules out disease.

All my pods and mysis shrimp passed.

 

[W31Olds]

ORB reading of 500 seems very high. You may have a problem with your Probe or Electrical Interference.
Also, nitrates over 100 may have been what ultimately lead to your initial loses. Could they have caused a bacterial issue that led to low O2.

@Randy Holmes-Farley

 

[vetteguy53081]

But the fish that survived is fine in another tank. So that rules out disease.

All my pods and mysis shrimp passed.

The higher the ORP, the more load the biofiltration can handle without issues which is the key concern with fish loss. Fish in a separate tank not showing disease, at least yet.
How are you testing water? And you can disregard nitrite which is freshwater specific

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yeah orb is reading fine I believe considering can use it in another tank and its within range.

Corals will be happy for the day if I add prime.

Ive checked the cycle by adding Dr tims and ammonia is gone within a couple hours.

I done have ozone or chlorine.

The ICP came back with iodine at 2.2ppm. I don't know why or where this come from, although I checked my Alkalinity additive and it also had iodide in it. Could it just be from this? I don't dose massive amounts of
alk, like 15ml per day.

I just don't know what else could be causing this.

I have multiple tanks in the house and have no problem with the others.

Iodine can raise ORP, but it is soon changed to iodide or iodate.

Oxygen can also raise the ORP, but not that high.

I’m at a loss as to why your ORP is rising like that, but the symptoms all seem to match / fish and shrimp dying, but corals less affected.

 

[daniel58]

ORB reading of 500 seems very high. You may have a problem with your Probe or Electrical Interference.
Also, nitrates over 100 may have been what ultimately lead to your initial loses. Could they have caused a bacterial issue that led to low O2.

@Randy Holmes-Farley

Yes, I’ve also read multiple pages off Randy’s comments about ORB, normally it wouldn’t bother me it’s just that it in relation to how the corals look.

The first lot of fish could have been high nitrate and a completely different problem. Tank looks great for months with new corals and fish.

I can’t see the probe being the issue when I’ve tested my other tanks and they are within normal range.

I’ve had an electrician check tank for stray voltage. I’ve added a grounding probe, so this isn’t the issue.

Everything tests correctly.

There has been no fish in the tank for a bit now but no change to the corals.

Orb rises overnight mushrooms turn outside in. Zoas close up. Anemone turned outside in.

Add prime orb drops corals open back up.

It’s very bizarre

 

[daniel58]

But the fish that survived is fine in another tank. So that rules out disease.

All my pods and mysis shrimp passed.

The higher the ORP, the more load the biofiltration can handle without issues which is the key concern with fish loss. Fish in a separate tank not showing disease, at least yet.
How are you testing water? And you can disregard nitrite which is freshwater specific

I use Hanna checkers, but have had an icp test done. Just the iodine was 2.2ppm extremely high. I do not know if this is the cause.

 

[Mebbid]

It sounds to me like it might be a contaminant. My first thought was velvet, but if there were no new additions that's definitely not the case.

After either a water change or usage of prime it appears to help but goes back to its problematic state within a short period of time.

Are there any air fresheners that spray on a timer near the tank? Usage of cleaning products? Anything at all that would emit fumes in the general vicinity of the tank?