Help me decide on my reefing approach

[Subsea]

I’m definitely going live rock. I would like to go bare bottom if possible since I want to keep water changes fairly simple without having to siphon sand, thoughts ?

Awesome and wow, at 21 years OLD, I’ve always adored the ocean and it’s beautiful reefs/ habitants, I never understood why but I do

Why is sand a problem for partial water changes?

Pound for pound, sand has many fold more surface area for bacteria colonization than live rock. However, more importantly, sand provides a matrix for detrivores & micro inverts that consume inorganic & organic nutrients and feed hungry mouths via the microbial loop.

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

Why is sand a problem for partial water changes?

Pound for pound, sand has many fold more surface area for bacteria colonization than live rock. However, more importantly, sand provides a matrix for detrivores & micro inverts that consume inorganic & organic nutrients and feed hungry mouths via the microbial loop.

Mainly siphoning the sand during water changes. My thought process is it keeps the sand from building up and trapping detritus and poop which if stirred causes nitrate spikes

Is there any flaw in my thought process ?

 

[Subsea]

Mainly siphoning the sand during water changes. My thought process is it keeps the sand from building up and trapping detritus and poop which if stirred causes nitrate spikes

Is there any flaw in my thought process ?

In my 25 year mature 75G reef, I stir the top of the sand to feed detritus & detrivores to filter feeders and I add ammonia to feed nitrogen to system, in addition to feeding fish & coral heavy.

I know a new tank doesn’t operate the same as an established mature tank. If all you want is fish and coraline algae then disregard the microbial loop conversation.

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

When I was a teenager in Lafayette, La my father took the neighborhood boys deep sea fishing 100 miles south of Intracoastal City. We would tie up to production platforms and because I often got seasick, I transferred to platform via swing rope. From this steady platform, I would gaze into the “deep blue”. Fast forward 25 years and I am a Subsea Engineer on Transocean’s dynamically positioned drillship “Discovery Seven Seas”. Using ROV high resolution camera, I was able to see what is in the deep blue and the beauty never ceases to amaze me. The more I learn, the more J realize how little I know.

It’s scary yet amazing what the ocean is. It’s a world within a world that only a small percentage get to discover, a reef tank is my ticket to a small piece of that bigger world

Hope you’re enjoying what you do, definitely sounds like you do !

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

In my 25 year mature 75G reef, I stir the top of the sand to feed detritus & detrivores to filter feeders and I add ammonia to feed nitrogen to system, in addition to feeding fish & coral heavy.

I know a new tank doesn’t operate the same as an established mature tank. If all you want is fish and coraline algae then disregard the microbial loop conversation.

Okay, I will consider my options. I have a build thread I have started where I will document my approach. I’m going to go the Paul B method, it’s only natural I believe

 

[Subsea]

Okay, I will consider my options. I have a build thread I have started where I will document my approach. I’m going to go the Paul B method, it’s only natural I believe

Paul has been Reefing 6 months more than I and I am 6 months older than Paul. Paul was Air Calvary in Vietnam and I was an Air Force crew chief on Puff the Magic Dragon. We are kindered spirits.

 

[Subsea]

Okay, I will consider my options. I have a build thread I have started where I will document my approach. I’m going to go the Paul B method, it’s only natural I believe

One method in which I cycled a tank was first use 1’ of aroggonite substrate and ghost feed dead shrimp to complete nitrogen fixation bacteria cycle, usually less than a week.. Then add real live rock with no fish to allow diversity on unctred live ruck to emerge., then after 3 months add LPS & janitors. At 3 months, add fish also.

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

Mainly siphoning the sand during water changes. My thought process is it keeps the sand from building up and trapping detritus and poop which if stirred causes nitrate spikes

Is there any flaw in my thought process ?

Detritus and poop is what corals love. This is what happens in nature. I used to siphon my sand, but then I would have to pick out micro brittles and other micro CUC out of my water change bucket. PIA! So now once a week I pick a corner and stir up the sand with a turkey baster. leaving my micro clean up crew intact, and the corals have a field day ( or at least a few minutes ) Hopefully you will get a few micro brittles with your live rock.
BTW my sand bed is shallow 1-1.5 inches and gets movement from the flow I have set up.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Detritus and poop is what corals love. This is what happens in nature. I used to siphon my sand, but then I would have to pick out micro brittles and other micro CUC out of my water change bucket. PIA! So now once a week I pick a corner and stir up the sand with a turkey baster. leaving my micro clean up crew intact, and the corals have a field day ( or at least a few minutes ) Hopefully you will get a few micro brittles with your live rock.
BTW my sand bed is shallow 1-1.5 inches and gets movement from the flow I have set up.

This is what I do as well. I've never actually vacuumed the sand, and prefer to do the majority of my water change from the sump so as to minimize freaking out my fish. I blow off the rocks with a baster a few times a week and stir or baste a small section of the sand bed about once a week.

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

Paul has been Reefing 6 months more than I and I am 6 months older than Paul. Paul was Air Calvary in Vietnam and I was an Air Force crew chief on Puff the Magic Dragon. We are kindered spirits.

Thank you for your service, brave men

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

One method in which I cycled a tank was first use 1’ of aroggonite substrate and ghost feed dead shrimp to complete nitrogen fixation bacteria cycle, usually less than a week.. Then add real live rock with no fish to allow diversity on unctred live ruck to emerge., then after 3 months add LPS & janitors. At 3 months, add fish also.

Im assuming testing Ammonia isn’t necessary but would be an okay method for determining that quantity of free ammonia in the water

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

Detritus and poop is what corals love. This is what happens in nature. I used to siphon my sand, but then I would have to pick out micro brittles and other micro CUC out of my water change bucket. PIA! So now once a week I pick a corner and stir up the sand with a turkey baster. leaving my micro clean up crew intact, and the corals have a field day ( or at least a few minutes ) Hopefully you will get a few micro brittles with your live rock.
BTW my sand bed is shallow 1-1.5 inches and gets movement from the flow I have set up.

I had the same issue with the CUC after siphoning, but I would hand pick them out and put them in. Sometimes I’d only relocate them in my tank

My reef is small enough to give the sand a thorough mixing with my hand without issues during a WC

question, is there a difference between live bacteria on rock vs bacteria present in sand ? Do you guys know of any threads I could give a good read for that info in case it’s already been presented?

 

[Subsea]

“question, is there a difference between live bacteria on rock vs bacteria present in sand ? Do you guys know of any threads I could give a good read for that info in case it’s already been presented?”

The short answer is NO. However, nutrient management in a reef tank is more complicated than bacteria. Dr Ron Smick likes worms in his sandbeds.

What lives in the matrix of live sand & live rock as micro flora & fauna is so much more than bacteria: these little people using energy rich detritus supply the “microbial loop”.

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

“question, is there a difference between live bacteria on rock vs bacteria present in sand ? Do you guys know of any threads I could give a good read for that info in case it’s already been presented?”

The short answer is NO. However, nutrient management in a reef tank is more complicated than bacteria. Dr Ron Smick likes worms in his sandbeds.

What lives in the matrix of live sand & live rock as micro flora & fauna is so much more: these little people using energy rich detritus supply the “microbial loop”.

If I understand correctly, it’s important to consider creating a natural habitat so that the reef tank can house various animals that will contribute to the microbial loop, ie a sand bed that is home to various small creatures

 

[Subsea]

Im assuming testing Ammonia isn’t necessary but would be an okay method for determining that quantity of free ammonia in the water

I doubt you would measure free ammonia in display tank, both corals & algae prefer NH4 & NG3 to NO3

 

[Paul B]

Okay, I will consider my options. I have a build thread I have started where I will document my approach. I’m going to go the Paul B method, it’s only natural I believe

OOhhhh NNooo. Not the Paul B Method!!!! Are you Mad man? He is a Jiboni and doesn't know a hermit crab from Taylor Swifts cat. Everyone will make fun at you when your reef reaches 30 or 40 years old and think you are possessed, lucky or worse, cheating. :anguished-face:

No quarantine, no medications, no diseases and an UNDERGRAVEL filter!!! It can't possibly work and I would re think this. :face-with-thermometer:

 

[Subsea]

OOhhhh NNooo. Not the Paul B Method!!!! Are you Mad man? He is a Jiboni and doesn't know a hermit crab from Taylor Swifts cat. Everyone will make fun at you when your reef reaches 30 or 40 years old and think you are possessed, lucky or worse, cheating. :anguished-face:

No quarantine, no medications, no diseases and an UNDERGRAVEL filter!!! It can't possibly work and I would re think this. :face-with-thermometer:

@Angel_V_the_reefer

Let the adventure begin. Consider going to Galveston to harvest Peppermint Mint and anemone from the jetties or seining grass shrimp & green mollies from salt water marshes in Dickerson Bay. I also have collected live rock with diversity of filter feeding barnacles & tube worms of different colors.

Ask @Paul B what he collects from the North Shore of Long Island!