I second this, I was doing it back in early 2k before any of these forums were a thing.I’ll testify for Brandon’s advice. A full cleaning and new water never killed any of my fish or corals. My tank looks better with every rip clean I do.
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I second this, I was doing it back in early 2k before any of these forums were a thing.I’ll testify for Brandon’s advice. A full cleaning and new water never killed any of my fish or corals. My tank looks better with every rip clean I do.
I was just thinking about the conditions required to grow thick mats of cyanobacteria outside the aquarium in salt water in an illuminated petri dishe: organic particulate matter (e.g., dry fish food or glutamine (I did not try all amino acids). I never had good luck with inorganic nitrogen, which I cannot explain. Neither ammonium chloride nor nitrate stimulated growth. Even stranger, my cyanobacteria died (!!!) if I only supplied nitrate nitrogen. Clearly, there is more to this story that needs lab work to understand It.Surprised that this is not very known because when I heard about it was already in the 80:ties - just before the discussion about nitrate as a growth limiter in sea water was introduced. A large chemical firm had developed a method to be rid of H2S in sewage systems (one of the larger treat to the health for sewage workers) and try to have this method accepted (and sold) to many municipalities. The method was simple - just add NO3 into the sewage. Unlucky for them (at least in Sweden) short afterwards the alarm of NO3 induced eutrophication in seawater came
The first explanation that I heard was the the electron acceptor explanation - oxygen -> nitrate -> sulphur compounds-> carbon dioxide but it shows up that it was mostly other organism than the oxygen - nitrate group that was responsible for the H2S production. There was no super bacteria that could swing between oxygen, nitrate and sulphur compounds as electron acceptor. (however - lately - the discovery of non-sulphur purple photosynthetic bacteria have shown that it exist ) - maybe its time to relearn again
I have to admit that I have not dig in further in the literature recently because this knowledge have been as the law of gravity for me - self-evident I have missed the nitrite explanation - however I have not put this together with only DNRAs and if the nitrite theory is true - it must be valid for both the classic denitrification and maybe even the sulphur driven autotrophic denitrification - both processes know for producing nitrite as intermediate stage. However I have some doubt because I have seen occasions with both nitrite and H2S in the water. But I leave it to you for deeper digging And nitrite is necessary in the anammox process - the process that convert NH3/NH4 directly into N2
However - nitrate in the water suppress H2S production - and it has been my dogma for many years when I have advocated for readable NO3 concentrations in our aquaria > 2 ppm. And that´s the reason why I use NO3 in the fight against cyanobacteria. I know it works but that is because lack of usable nitrogen for other organisms I do not buy - NH3/NH4 use to be common together with cyanobacteria when they use their toolbox of different ways for nitrogen fixation. The explanation for NO3 effectiveness in this situation must be an other and this theory (H2S production suppressor) have been the best fitted for me to now. But I´m no microbiologist - only a very interested hobbyist that have many strings on his lyre ( a translated swedish expression for a multi-tasker)
Sincerely Lasse
And ...... that´s exactly the goal when I add nitrate - to make that the Cyanobacteria not get P from the substrate.Even stranger, my cyanobacteria died (!!!) if I only supplied nitrate nitrogen
none of my successful seawater media for my cyanobacteria would stimulate the red species to grow mats.
Without knowing your media I can´t say bu or ba
When the argue about high dissolved inorganic nutrition as a trigger disappear. Glutamine is an organic N- source that can pass through the cell walls of one cells organisms at least . I suppose that your cyanobacteria was alive in the solution - but just no mats formed.
Sincerely Lasse
You write that you had 1 ppm PO4 in the water column and no mat formation before. Did you get mat formation with 1 ppm in the water column and organic matter in the discs?When there was plenty of the right kind of nitrogen and phosphorous available, mats formed.
The only time that I had mat formation was with PO4+organic nitrogen. You should know that experiments were not performed with pure cyanobacteria (never my intention).You write that you had 1 ppm PO4 in the water column and no mat formation before. Did you get mat formation with 1 ppm in the water column and organic matter in the discs?
Sincerely Lasse
I used glutamine, glutamic acid and arginine. @taricha used things like fish flakes.What was the organic nitrogen?
Sincerely Lasse
Thank you for the answer.
I´ll stop arguing here - too much off topic I suppose. I will prepare an own thread because the last post from you did not through my thinking overboard - it strengthen them with some adjustments. However if @Snoopdog think it is in topic in this thread - I will continue with my long answers to you that will result in a long answer from you and so on
Sincerely Lasse
I will prepare my answer to @Dan_P - Please let me know when you think I go bananas - do not want to crash your thread.
Sincerely Lasse
Looking forwards to your refined ideas and hopefully some ideas on how to experimentally test them! DanThank you for the answer.
I´ll stop arguing here - too much off topic I suppose. I will prepare an own thread because the last post from you did not through my thinking overboard - it strengthen them with some adjustments. However if @Snoopdog think it is in topic in this thread - I will continue with my long answers to you that will result in a long answer from you and so on
Sincerely Lasse
I must have been bad in explaining my thoughts. I do not see it primary as a competition for nutrients in the water.
My theory in short
According to mat building cyanobacteria - they are always present but not always form mats. I think that the critical point is when they decide to build mats or with other words take some of the energy from the photosynthesis and excrete a slime of mostly carbohydrates. My idea is that when they can catch PO4 from the water column - they do that and they have some competition some algae and fungus about available space. They stay put. If the PO4 will be sparse or nonexistent - they need to get PO4 from other sources. On way of doing this is to form a mat that create anaerobic environment between the mat and substrate. In this anaerobic environment bacteria will grow - both Nitrogen fixating bacteria, denitrifikation bacteria and when the NO3 is zero or very low - bacteria that produce hydrogen sulphide will establish themselves. The hydrogen sulphide will break the bounds between different metals and phosphate in the substrate and phosphate will be released to the hungry cyanobacteria. If the area they establish themself content a high amount of organic matter - PO4 will be released from the organic matter too. When the trigger had started the mat forming - it becomes a self playing piano between the mat and the substrate - first when all P has gone - the mat start to decline.
According to nitrate - I not only concentrate me on that because it is a inorganic nitrogen source - there is plenty of other sources of inorganic N and even some organic N (amino acids) that unicellular organism can use both in a autotrophic and an heterotopic way (primary and secondary producers). I´m interested of NO3 because it has another important role in anaerobic bacterial community. As long NO3 exist in the water - it block most of the hydrogen sulphide producers, hence the release of PO4 from metal-PO4 compounds in the substrate.
I do believe that low PO4 can be a trigger for mat forming but also low NO3 can act that way too. Probably there is other triggers too. I also believe that there can be part of the tank there it can microenvironment with low PO4 or NO3 - especially in tanks with low flow or dead spots.
Because I see the mat forming as the Gordian knot - I use three actions when the mats has establish themselves. Disturb the mats as much as possible, have enough high NO3 levels in order to have zero hydrogen sulphide production below the mats and if PO4 is low - have a PO4 concentration between 0.05 to 0.1 mg/L. Good circulation (I love standing waves) in order to not establish favorable microenvironment can help too
I agree that this is only a theory and do not need to be the truth. However - the theory have helped me to stand free from Cyanobacteria mat forming for most of the time and with a treatment schema when things goes downhill. The schema include disturbing of the mats, keep up PO4 to 0.05 - 0.1, rise the NO3 up to at least 5 ppm and sometimes go down in light intensity and slowly rise it back to normal during a couple of weeks. The lowering of the light aim to lower the secret (slime) production (they need photosynthesis for that).
I prefer to work with the biology instead of nuking it.
Sincerely Lasse
Here it comes but this is ecology and it is not easy to test as a cause - effect in a petri dish. But can you repeat tests with the common used Guillard's F/2 nutrient media solution and if that not work as an mat forming agent - just add amino acids. I would first test with a solution like F/2 but without the vitamins. Next step - if nothing happens - ad the vitamins - and still no mat forming - ad some amino acids. Formula for F/2 - here You can by it too - seek for F/2 mediaLooking forwards to your refined ideas and hopefully some ideas on how to experimentally test them! Dan
I second this, I was doing it back in early 2k before any of these forums were a thing.