Help needed, losing corals fast!

[JaimeAdams]

How long have you been doing this

I've been doing it for maybe 4 months now. The idea was not mine. It came from some of the big time high end Torch collectors. They do monthly cycles of Cipro as a sort of prophylactic treatment.

 

[Morpheosz]

My ICP test was finally posted this morning. Other than a "slight lack of boron" everything came up perfect. No unwanted metals - zeros across the board with the exception of aluminum which came up 5 which is still well in the green.

 

[Morpheosz]

My ICP test was finally posted this morning. Other than a "slight lack of boron" everything came up perfect. No unwanted metals - zeros across the board with the exception of aluminum which came up 5 which is still well in the green.

Oops, looked at the wrong results. I have 0's across the board for unwanted metals. Only suggestion is potassium, but it's still in the low end of acceptable range.

 

[Morpheosz]

WHICH Tropic Marine Pro? German or Turkish?

I do not have the packaging as I emptied it into a bucket. I have heard there were issues with the Turkish salt but as I said, my tank is probably 99% Red Sea salt at this point as I haven't done a water change with the Tropic Marin yet. My son has used this water on his 20g tank for a couple of water changes and is not experiencing any issues.

 

[Morpheosz]

Treating SCTLD

After receiving a new AquaBiomics test result, Ive found that I have SCTLD in my system I have been battling a mysterious RTN/STN event in my tank for months now. All parameters have been great, Ive sent out at least 5 ICP test results and fixed any minor problem I had so I figured it had to be...

www.reef2reef.com

Post #12 and #14 look exactly like what I have going on. It does seem like giving Cipro a shot is a likely low risk, potential solution based on the threads people posted. I think I will give that a shot.

 

[Lavey29]

I've been doing it for maybe 4 months now. The idea was not mine. It came from some of the big time high end Torch collectors. They do monthly cycles of Cipro as a sort of prophylactic treatment.

I have heard of this being done but have concerns over the long term. My coral vendor told me there is no knowledge of the long term affects of dosing cipro regularly. The short term affects for fixing certain bacteria issues work great but at what cost? We dont really know yet. I just dosed some a few days ago because it appeared my hammers had a bacteria infection slowly killing heads one by one over some weeks. One dose of cipro 125mg and no more problems. You are dosing a large amount also. How old is your tank? Did you have a bacteria problem or are you just doing it as a preventative measure?

 

[Lavey29]

Do you know what product / brand you used?

Here is what I got

 

[JaimeAdams]

I have heard of this being done but have concerns over the long term. My coral vendor told me there is no knowledge of the long term affects of dosing cipro regularly. The short term affects for fixing certain bacteria issues work great but at what cost? We dont really know yet. I just dosed some a few days ago because it appeared my hammers had a bacteria infection slowly killing heads one by one over some weeks. One dose of cipro 125mg and no more problems. You are dosing a large amount also. How old is your tank? Did you have a bacteria problem or are you just doing it as a preventative measure?

Just as a preventative measure. My tank is mostly Acropora, Goniopora, Torches, Colorado Sunbursts with some higher end mushrooms then some other stuff along the bottom. I have also dosed the tanks at the coral store that I run and have had my boss dose our aquaculture tanks as well.

I agree that we may not know what the long term affect may be, but from the people that I talked to prior to starting this that had bacterial analysis preformed the initial findings seemed to not show anything negative.

 

[MaxTremors]

What kind of animals did you add? Anything with a taste for coral? As far as tank maturity goes, 8 dkh today is the same as 8dkh in 6 months. If the tank is successfully completing its nitrogen cycle, and parameters are stable, then it shouldn't matter how long its been operating. I would not start throwing a bunch of chemicals at the tank.

Beyond the nitrogen cycle (and ‘cycling’ a tank is only the first half of the nitrogen cycle), there is an as yet fully understood quality of a mature tank that some corals and anemones seem to need to fully thrive. I don’t know if it’s bacterial, or what it is exactly, but everything else being equal (parameters, lighting, flow, etc.), certain corals will do much better in a mature tank than in an immature tank. There are things you can do to help a tank mature faster, but time is still the biggest factor. I realize that’s not an ‘actionable theory’, but it’s something most experienced reefers know to be true. It’s unfortunate for the OP, I understand that saying they just went to fast doesn’t offer a solution, but IME, there really isn’t one, other than transferring the more sensitive corals to a mature tank.

 

[Lavey29]

Just as a preventative measure. My tank is mostly Acropora, Goniopora, Torches, Colorado Sunbursts with some higher end mushrooms then some other stuff along the bottom. I have also dosed the tanks at the coral store that I run and have had my boss dose our aquaculture tanks as well.

I agree that we may not know what the long term affect may be, but from the people that I talked to prior to starting this that had bacterial analysis preformed the initial findings seemed to not show anything negative.

Great info, thanks.... I have similar corals in my tank also.

OP I don't know if cipro is the solution to your problem or not. I tend to agree with other posters about tank maturity playing a critical factor in coral health especially SPS corals. Your tank is still developing biodiversity and microfauna to establish eco balance.

However, I do not know of any current negatives about trying cipro as a remedy for your situation. It does not hurt inverts none of my fish died, etc... and you see the post from the other reefer dosing multiple tanks on a monthly basis as a preventative measure.

 

[Morpheosz]

Great info, thanks.... I have similar corals in my tank also.

OP I don't know if cipro is the solution to your problem or not. I tend to agree with other posters about tank maturity playing a critical factor in coral health especially SPS corals. Your tank is still developing biodiversity and microfauna to establish eco balance.

However, I do not know of any current negatives about trying cipro as a remedy for your situation. It does not hurt inverts none of my fish died, etc... and you see the post from the other reefer dosing multiple tanks on a monthly basis as a preventative measure.

I appreciate the suggestion. I think it’s worth a shot.

I understand the maturity sentiment everyone is expressing but I also think a big part of that sentiment is shorthand for all the mistakes or challenges people often have with new tanks. Much of what is lack of maturity translates to instability in vital parameters or pests overtaking things. I’ve empirically demonstrated that I’ve avoided the vast majority of that through a thoughtful, well researched, and very attentive approach to testing and managing this tank. Parameters are solid and stable, positive indicators like coralline and rapid coral growth bear out the fact that things were generally very good. I don’t buy an immature biome would lead to sudden rapid onset tissue loss in random corals. Some of the same species are simultaneously thriving and disintegrating. That doesn’t intuitively point to a systemic maturity problem for me. I may not be an expert but I’m pretty good at developing well reasoned hypotheses. This may not be an infection but it fits the evidence better in my mind and it is potentially actionable. Telling me I went to fast is a judgment call, not a hypothesis as to what is wrong or an approach to moving forward.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Just as a preventative measure. My tank is mostly Acropora, Goniopora, Torches, Colorado Sunbursts with some higher end mushrooms then some other stuff along the bottom. I have also dosed the tanks at the coral store that I run and have had my boss dose our aquaculture tanks as well.

I agree that we may not know what the long term affect may be, but from the people that I talked to prior to starting this that had bacterial analysis preformed the initial findings seemed to not show anything negative.

The long term effects of overusing antibiotics is well known - it creates antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria. If you continue your practice of frequent use, especially if there is no illness seen, you run the risk of Cipro/other antibiotics not working at all in your tank.

 

[Lavey29]

The long term effects of overusing antibiotics is well known - it creates antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria. If you continue your practice of frequent use, especially if there is no illness seen, you run the risk of Cipro/other antibiotics not working at all in your tank.

This is a proven fact in the medical field for human treatment but is there any definitive evidence from studies with aquatic life like corals. Does underwater bacteria act the same as virus or bacteria in our bodies?

 

[Lavey29]

I appreciate the suggestion. I think it’s worth a shot.

I understand the maturity sentiment everyone is expressing but I also think a big part of that sentiment is shorthand for all the mistakes or challenges people often have with new tanks. Much of what is lack of maturity translates to instability in vital parameters or pests overtaking things. I’ve empirically demonstrated that I’ve avoided the vast majority of that through a thoughtful, well researched, and very attentive approach to testing and managing this tank. Parameters are solid and stable, positive indicators like coralline and rapid coral growth bear out the fact that things were generally very good. I don’t buy an immature biome would lead to sudden rapid onset tissue loss in random corals. Some of the same species are simultaneously thriving and disintegrating. That doesn’t intuitively point to a systemic maturity problem for me. I may not be an expert but I’m pretty good at developing well reasoned hypotheses. This may not be an infection but it fits the evidence better in my mind and it is potentially actionable. Telling me I went to fast is a judgment call, not a hypothesis as to what is wrong or an approach to moving forward.

Very experienced reefers have been able to successfully grow corals from early tank start up practically after filling with water but their level of experience takes years to perfect. Novice like me has to go slow and stumble along the way. Don't discount what some of the experienced people are suggesting to you just because they don't attach a scientific study with it. They got their knowledge from years of trial and error reefing kind of like what you are experiencing now. I hope you get it corrected and save your corals.

 

[Morpheosz]

Very experienced reefers have been able to successfully grow corals from early tank start up practically after filling with water but their level of experience takes years to perfect. Novice like me has to go slow and stumble along the way. Don't discount what some of the experienced people are suggesting to you just because they don't attach a scientific study with it. They got their knowledge from years of trial and error reefing kind of like what you are experiencing now. I hope you get it corrected and save your corals.

I understand and tremendously respect that lived experience.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

This is a proven fact in the medical field for human treatment but is there any definitive evidence from studies with aquatic life like corals. Does underwater bacteria act the same as virus or bacteria in our bodies?

Yes, "underwater bacteria" are subject to the same mechanisms, i.e. stronger individuals survive the antibiotic and reproduce.as each new treatment is used, more of the weaker bacteria die and the stronger ones have less competition and gain a larger foothold

 

[JaimeAdams]

The long term effects of overusing antibiotics is well known - it creates antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria. If you continue your practice of frequent use, especially if there is no illness seen, you run the risk of Cipro/other antibiotics not working at all in your tank.

I do not disagree with your assessment. I question whether or not 12 rounds over the course of a year is enough to create antibiotic resistance in coral bacteria.

 

[Lavey29]

Yes, "underwater bacteria" are subject to the same mechanisms, i.e. stronger individuals survive the antibiotic and reproduce.as each new treatment is used, more of the weaker bacteria die and the stronger ones have less competition and gain a larger foothold

Cool, thanks for sharing your knowledge. What is your primary reference showing that aquatic bacteria adapt and become resistant to antibiotics?

I'm not looking for generic stronger bacteria out compete weaker bacteria I'm looking for scientific studies that have proven underwater bacteria become drug resistant?

 

[Brian_68]

Cool, thanks for sharing your knowledge. What is your primary reference showing that aquatic bacteria adapt and become resistant to antibiotics?

I'm not looking for generic stronger bacteria out compete weaker bacteria I'm looking for scientific studies that have proven underwater bacteria become drug resistant?

What would be the difference between an "underwater" bacteria and one that lived in your body in the first place? And I assume they can be one in the same, for all those who have gotten jabbed on sharp rocks and showed signs of infection after, like I have a few times over the years of keeping tanks.

 

[Lavey29]

What would be the difference between an "underwater" bacteria and one that lived in your body in the first place? And I assume they can be one in the same, for all those who have gotten jabbed on sharp rocks and showed signs of infection after, like I have a few times over the years of keeping tanks.

I'm not disputing the probability but it's like covid has mutated multiple times now which require tweaks to the vaccine. Scientists can see the changes in the lab. Of course this is a virus not a bacteria but same theory as it tries to adapt to the treatment methods.

I'm just looking for studies that specifically focused on underwater bacteria that harms corals and how these bacterium became resistant to antibiotics as stated by the previous poster.