I have yet to see confirmation that bacteria is the cause of stn and rtn vs. them just being opportunistic on dying flesh. They estimate a drop of seawater has 100 different species of bacteria alone, and a liter has 1 billion bacteria and 10 billion viruses.... or is it just a spike in alkalinity that might trigger, that I have seen prior with one of my tanks.
gbroadbridge
2500 Club Member
Less is known about how a marine ecosystem works than most people think.
Quite frequently there are tanks that look really good on paper, all tests normal, ICP all normal, but for some reason the tank has problems.
The problems tend to resolve themselves as the tanks age, or if you like 'mature'.
No one fully understands why, obviously there is some parameter that mature tanks have that newish ones don't but isolating that needle is hard when you're not sure which of many haystacks to take apart straw by straw.
I sure one day it'll be figured out, and manufacturers will sell tanks with a bottle of Instant Reef, but in the mean time the only solution is for a tank to age a couple of years, at which point most have settled down.
EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal
Just another girl who likes fish
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about or even asking for. Doing a study to prove that "underwater bacteria" (there's that phrase again) can become resistant to antibiotics would be like doing a study to prove gravity. Known scientific facts don't need to keep being tested. (And by the way, gravity happens underwater too.)
And your comments about the Covid 19 virus prove my point!
I won't respond to this further.
I would like to add, in my last tank I experienced very VERY similar symptoms and this tank was 3 years old at the time of occurance, some corals looking phenomenal, no stress symptoms, parameters rock solid. Two separate ICPs from 2 companies (Triton and ATI), as well as every home test I could do, all came back perfect, just minor traces to correct.
Corals would be happy, extended, feeding, while simultaneously others would be practically melting before your eyes.
It affected EVERY coral. From acans, to pectinia, to euphyllia, to montis, everything.
Then suddenly, it just stopped.
The only theory, after losing 99% of the stock (only half of a blasto and some rhodactics made it out, and coencidentally by the time I really narrowed down and excluded every facet I could, I began lugols dips despite no real "hey this is bacterial" displayed symptoms, and the blasto was the healthiest specimen being dipped, and was 1 of "2" that made it through) was a infection with some sort of bacteria, likely vibro or other SCTLD.
Yeah the tanks young. But if it's stable, it's stable. Maturation may be the cause, sure. There's many things we can't see, and im 100% in the camp of take your time. But I'd investigate the bacteria first, as it sounds like there's really no harm to try it.
Corals would be happy, extended, feeding, while simultaneously others would be practically melting before your eyes.
It affected EVERY coral. From acans, to pectinia, to euphyllia, to montis, everything.
Then suddenly, it just stopped.
The only theory, after losing 99% of the stock (only half of a blasto and some rhodactics made it out, and coencidentally by the time I really narrowed down and excluded every facet I could, I began lugols dips despite no real "hey this is bacterial" displayed symptoms, and the blasto was the healthiest specimen being dipped, and was 1 of "2" that made it through) was a infection with some sort of bacteria, likely vibro or other SCTLD.
Yeah the tanks young. But if it's stable, it's stable. Maturation may be the cause, sure. There's many things we can't see, and im 100% in the camp of take your time. But I'd investigate the bacteria first, as it sounds like there's really no harm to try it.
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Lavey29
10K Club member
Lol, I knew you were out of your league but thanks for the entertainment.
I would do a major water change and change any filter floss or sock you have and do daily water changes until the corals stop executing polyp bail out. I'm running a ten gallon with no sump and way more more corals than I should for the size. High end chalices and lps at that. Clean everything real well. Anything that might be contributing to possible toxicity in the water. Calcium might be an issue as well. Only other thing I can think of is you might have moved just a little too fast. Could also be the bioload from the fish. I'd say just get all that water out and get your filters clean. Small daily changes and you should notice everything come to a halt.Tried posting this previously but didn't get any attention so trying again as my situation is evolving quickly. The short story is I have a 3.5 month old 75G tank that cycled and matured very quickly. I transplanted some rock from my previous nano and started with Ocean Direct sand. Within 2 months nearly everything was covered in Coralline and I have closely managed very stable water conditions. I have added a dozen fish and 40+ coral frags. It is a mixed reef with a little bit of everything.
For the first couple of months they were thriving, good extension, growing fast. Over the last 2-3 weeks, I had a number of my SPS quickly start to look pale, then start losing polyps in a patchy way. Over the course of the last week, I've completely lost 3 birds nest frags and a digitata. I have 2 stylophora that were growing like mad that look very patchy now and I have another birds nest that appears to be losing polyps from the base heading up. I have a few acro frags, two are losing tissue from the base and one looks ok, and oddly enough one seems to be thriving with polyp extension. I also had half a dozen euphyllia. I've lost 2 frogspawn that I added 3-4 weeks ago. They looked great for a week, then not so great for a week, then quickly receded and died over the course of a week. I have one more that is on the same trajectory and looks like it will be gone by tomorrow (less than a week ago it was quite large) - will add pic. I have one hammer that has looked kind of sad but hanging in there, one frogspawn and two hammers that look great still.
Oddly enough though, not all is unhappy, I have a many acans, 2 torches, half a dozen goni and one alve, 2 hammers, and a frogspawn that all look like they are thriving. Same story with a pair of elegance corals, and a bunch of zoas and pipe organs. I added a couple chalice a couple weeks ago that look fine so far as well.
My params have stayed consistent. Light measured with par meter is appropriate (75-150 for most of the tank with patches of 200-250 up top for the SPS).
These are averages over the 3 months, I check alk daily and adjust dosing to stay consistent as well as phosphates as they will bottom out if I don't.
pH 8.05-8.2 daily
Alk 8.0
NO3 4-7
PO4 .03-.07
Ca 440-450
Mg 1325-1375
Talked to my LFS and he suggested could be bacterial infection and suggested maybe a chemiclean run. Thoughts?
Would really appreciate any thoughts, this is very frustrating as I've been super attentive and things were on a great trajectory. I have been adding a lot of frags so that is the one thing that has been a moving target.
OP
OP
This is a fair point, however, I would counter by saying the world is covered in bacteria, with the vast majority of it being benign to their macroscopic hosts, yet there are still certain bacteria that are harmful, or harmful in quantities, or harmful in the wrong place (e.g. E.Coli).
OP
OP
Hey Chris, thanks for jumping in, appreciate your thoughts! I think at this point a combo of water changes and a cipro treatment and waiting it out is the next course of action. Seems like the damage is slowing down, what's dead is dead and all but a pair of stylo and an acro frag seems happy and healthy. Ironically, I swear yesterday a couple of my corals looked the best they ever have - corals I thought were doing great showed even further polyp extension!
iMi
Well-Known Member
I had a sudden die off as well. Mature tank, water parameters spot on. I tried everything. Turns out a faulty wavemaker was leaching heavy metals. Removed it, all recovered within a few days. Sadly I lost a few corals but all else survived.
It might be a good idea to check/eliminate equipment one at a time if nothing else seems to explain the problem.
It might be a good idea to check/eliminate equipment one at a time if nothing else seems to explain the problem.
Swbvegas
Community Member
Uhm, the dry way to put it would be that there is no definitive answer. It's like playing roulette with an immature tank and that much stock. You'll have one problem pop up, solve it, then another will pop up.
OP
OP
Yeah, good question. The quick answer is I've used a par meter to dial in my lighting - 75-150 for softies and LPS, 200-300 for SPS. The even quicker answer is the lighting has been consistent since they were thriving.
Flow I've tinkered with a bit, but only since the downturn as I was talking to my LFS and came to the conclusion that my flow was probably a bit high for my LPS. With that said, it's still really good flow, good sway to the LPS and the SPS get pretty direct pulses.
OP
OP
Thanks for the suggestion but I did just get my ICP test back showing 0s across the board for contaminants so I think I'm probably good there. Also this is all new equipment (I know, no guarantee, but seems unlikely).
OP
OP
Oh there definitely is a definitive answer, whether or not I'll find it is the question
Again, I'll keep searching for answers or a solution as that's how we progress this hobby both individually and collectively.
Surfandturf
Well-Known Member
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Based on what you have written in your initial post, you have started this tank off way too quickly. First, I think you stated that you have "added a dozen fish", that's a lot for a 75 gallon system. Even if they are all on the smaller side. I have a 125 gallon with 5 fish and I am pushing it. Next issue is how quickly you added a full blown reef of corals to your system. Lets be honest here, maybe your tank cycled fast, I would like to know what method you used. I know one that works great and I have used it twice. My tanks have cycled in about 2 weeks, but I never added as much as fast as you. There is no way possible for the beneficial bacteria to keep up with your livestock. Most people do not add SPS until their system is at least 1 year old maybe even longer. Your system is so juvenile you will continue to lose coral until it has been paired down to what the biological system can actually handle.Tried posting this previously but didn't get any attention so trying again as my situation is evolving quickly. The short story is I have a 3.5 month old 75G tank that cycled and matured very quickly. I transplanted some rock from my previous nano and started with Ocean Direct sand. Within 2 months nearly everything was covered in Coralline and I have closely managed very stable water conditions. I have added a dozen fish and 40+ coral frags. It is a mixed reef with a little bit of everything.
For the first couple of months they were thriving, good extension, growing fast. Over the last 2-3 weeks, I had a number of my SPS quickly start to look pale, then start losing polyps in a patchy way. Over the course of the last week, I've completely lost 3 birds nest frags and a digitata. I have 2 stylophora that were growing like mad that look very patchy now and I have another birds nest that appears to be losing polyps from the base heading up. I have a few acro frags, two are losing tissue from the base and one looks ok, and oddly enough one seems to be thriving with polyp extension. I also had half a dozen euphyllia. I've lost 2 frogspawn that I added 3-4 weeks ago. They looked great for a week, then not so great for a week, then quickly receded and died over the course of a week. I have one more that is on the same trajectory and looks like it will be gone by tomorrow (less than a week ago it was quite large) - will add pic. I have one hammer that has looked kind of sad but hanging in there, one frogspawn and two hammers that look great still.
Oddly enough though, not all is unhappy, I have a many acans, 2 torches, half a dozen goni and one alve, 2 hammers, and a frogspawn that all look like they are thriving. Same story with a pair of elegance corals, and a bunch of zoas and pipe organs. I added a couple chalice a couple weeks ago that look fine so far as well.
My params have stayed consistent. Light measured with par meter is appropriate (75-150 for most of the tank with patches of 200-250 up top for the SPS).
These are averages over the 3 months, I check alk daily and adjust dosing to stay consistent as well as phosphates as they will bottom out if I don't.
pH 8.05-8.2 daily
Alk 8.0
NO3 4-7
PO4 .03-.07
Ca 440-450
Mg 1325-1375
Talked to my LFS and he suggested could be bacterial infection and suggested maybe a chemiclean run. Thoughts?
Would really appreciate any thoughts, this is very frustrating as I've been super attentive and things were on a great trajectory. I have been adding a lot of frags so that is the one thing that has been a moving target.
OP
OP
Thanks for sharing your perspective. Based on my extensive research and years of experience, I would say that your opinion on livestock is on the very conservative side. I don't think most people would think that having 5 fish in a 125 is pushing it. I also don't think it's a correct assessment to say that I've added a whole reef of corals. All the frags I've added total the biomass of maybe 1 full grown coral colony... maybe. I really don't think I'm pushing the biological filtration capabilities.
In my 3 decades of aquarium and pond experience, I've come to understand the exponential growth of bacteria. Once you have an established colony, it can scale up quickly. I believe "beneficial bacteria" additives are largely snake oil / money makers for established tanks. For example, my pond store tries to tell me I need to add "beneficial bacteria" to my pond weekly which is nuts. I asked them why when bacteria gets established everywhere and that I've kept aquariums for years and never had to keep adding more "beneficial bacteria" to which they said "well a pond is totally different, when it rains everything can change and / or wash out". Unscientific crazy talk to sell unnecessary product. Sad thing is I think she believed the marketing from the manufacturer.
I started the tank with about 10-15lbs of live rock from my year old nano tank, plus I used Ocean Direct sand. I also started the refugium with a ball of chaeto about 2 weeks in and added a pod mix. I added Microbacter because I had it on hand but don't really think it was necessary. Lastly I added 2 bottles of the coralline starter from algae barn. I don't think it's fair to characterize the tank as completely new needing some extended cycling in the traditional sense, more I just gave an already functioning biome more room to grow.
In addition to that I have tested pH, Alk, PO4 almost daily, and nitrates, calcium, and magnesium 1-2x / week. I have dosed to keep alkalinity almost perfectly consistent at 8.0, and phosphates and nitrates to keep them in an acceptably low but detectable range. I have had no ugly stage and the fish, most corals and coralline have thrived.
Since you have a pond, and am looking for answers. I have a 12 by 12 pond 6 feet in one end 3 in the other. The leaves all blew into my pond. I waded in and started to pull them out. I stirred up the partially rotted leaves, and released what I think were tannins. It killed all my fish instantly. Just an avenue for you to think about. If you stirred up the substrate. Have had similar experience with coral in my tank.
OP
OP
That's why I put a net over my pond in the fall, same reason I monitor the inputs into my aquarium.
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