Here Is A Way To Measure Ammonia Accurately

OP
OP
Dan_P

Dan_P

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
6,539
Reaction score
6,994
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I tested this method with the RedSea kit to see how much therapeutic copper levels affected readings and gave a false positive ammonia level of about 10x (0.05 ppm before copper, 0.5 ppm after). It maxed out the ULR P and had to use the Hanna alk checker. Do you chemistry folks know why that is? Would using the API kit be any different?
If the copper is chelated with NH3 that would do it. Copper can chelate 4 NH3 I think. Also, other nitrogen containing chelating agents could interfere with this method.
 
OP
OP
Dan_P

Dan_P

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
6,539
Reaction score
6,994
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
@Dan_P @taricha Good stuff!!

Important point that some may not know is that this is a NH4/NH3 (ammonium/ammonia) test and the fractions of each are pH dependent. With high pH having a higher fraction of NH3. *In fact it's a good idea if a stocked tank is producing truly detectable NH4/NH3 to lower the pH to 7.8 with HCl/hydrochloric acid/muriatic acid.

*must know what you're doing as can truly make things so much worse

Good points!

The title should have read “accurate measurement of total ammonia” and I should have reproduced the Red Sea table showing the % free ammonia for a given pH and temperature.
 

taricha

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
May 22, 2016
Messages
6,459
Reaction score
9,952
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I tested this method with the RedSea kit to see how much therapeutic copper levels affected readings and gave a false positive ammonia level of about 10x (0.05 ppm before copper, 0.5 ppm after). It maxed out the ULR P and had to use the Hanna alk checker. Do you chemistry folks know why that is? Would using the API kit be any different?
Like Dan said, this total ammonia test method is reactive (to varying degrees) with some organic nitrogen forms - usually it's small and we can ignore it. apparently not in this case. Red Sea and API will not differ here.

Seachem makes an ammonia kit that uses tiny color change discs that can be used (without the high pH drops) to react with free ammonia only. in that way they don't use any real reaction done on the sample water that would change the NH3 / NH4 / free / bound / complexed / whatever. So it can be used to see if the results of a total ammonia test line up with free ammonia amounts.

After spending some time with the kit trying to turn these little color discs into precise free ammonia measures, I would just say they are useful for ballpark measures, but not precise calculations. But they would totally tell you whether there is real significant free ammonia in the copper-treated water, or if as Dan says, the N is actually bound in the copper additive and not dangerous NH3.

(similar story will be true for using water conditioners to treat ammonia/chloramine containing water. Total Ammonia test will find it, a passive free ammonia membrane like the seachem discs / seneye ought to correctly tell you there isn't any).



Important point that some may not know is that this is a NH4/NH3 (ammonium/ammonia) test and the fractions of each are pH dependent. With high pH having a higher fraction of NH3. *In fact it's a good idea if a stocked tank is producing truly detectable NH4/NH3 to lower the pH to 7.8 with HCl/hydrochloric acid/muriatic acid.

*must know what you're doing as can truly make things so much worse
Having had that issue happen recently - rapid ammonia producing event when I was too busy to go hunt through my system for the dead fish, I could have used this idea.
I didn't think about playing the pH game, and instead I added Prime water conditioner to bind the ammonia being produced and cut my losses.
This might be a more comfortable option for those who don't know what we're doing.
 

Lasse

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 20, 2016
Messages
10,816
Reaction score
29,766
Location
Källarliden 14 D Bohus, Sweden
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
That's a nessler kit and though nessler kits can work in saltwater, the sensitivity is generally lower than the salicylate kits we are using.
See illustration here
Pic comparison
Nessler is based on mercury - all of these type of test are banned in Scandinavia and will sooner or later be banned in EU.

For me - NH3/NH4 is not the problem - there is many different organisms that are able to oxidize NH3/NH4 into NO2 (bacteria, fungus, archaea and other organisms including organism using photosynthesis) but there is only a few bacteria groups that are nitrite oxidizers. The toxicity of the NH3/NH4 complex is also pH depended. If you do not use Chemical NH3/NH4 additions and instead let the system mature with organisms and a very, very low feed rate - it will not be any upbuild of toxic NH3 levels before the first step start. I´m more interested of what low rate of the second step can create in the long run

Sincerely Lasse
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,438
Reaction score
23,542
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
reef tanks don't run zero ammonia, they run low level

so that's a great level.


.15 is nh4, reefing uses the directions portion of that test to turn it into nh3, that's for reefing

= .015 very very safe and what probably all stocked reef tanks run at, for that test kit at least. digital ones will go a bit further in trace measures and reveal reef tanks run in the thousandths ppm nh3 per current seneye measures uploaded to the web, it's our best ammonia meter to date.
 
Last edited:

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,438
Reaction score
23,542
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
You don't have to test for ammonia in a running reef display

once you are done cycling, don't test for ammonia further in a display it will only lead to doubt. reef displays can't lose ammonia control. the one thing that overcomes ammonia control in a reef display is all dead fish left in the tank to rot, killed by disease or hardware or procedural errors. at no time will ammonia rise to cause the fish kill, in a normal running display reef tank.

you can trust ammonia to control itself through peaks and troughs in a running reef display. any ammonia alert thread you've ever seen for a reef display is a false alarm, they simply tested during a peak time and assumed since it wasn't zero the cycle was broken: does not occur.


for cycling, only wait for the drop, it does not have to go to zero and you do not have to induce 2-3 ammonia boosts and drops, one drop down from the initial set rate to that level above you show is 100% cycled if the reef had rocks/lots of surface area in tow during the wait time signified by that ending drop.
 
Last edited:

Christine12138

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 10, 2022
Messages
34
Reaction score
11
Location
Melbourne
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
You don't have to test for ammonia in a running reef display

once you are done cycling, don't test for ammonia further in a display it will only lead to doubt. reef displays can't lose ammonia control. the one thing that overcomes ammonia control in a reef display is all dead fish left in the tank to rot, killed by disease or hardware or procedural errors. at no time will ammonia rise to cause the fish kill, in a normal running display reef tank.

you can trust ammonia to control itself through peaks and troughs in a running reef display. any ammonia alert thread you've ever seen for a reef display is a false alarm, they simply tested during a peak time and assumed since it wasn't zero the cycle was broken: does not occur.


for cycling, only wait for the drop, it does not have to go to zero and you do not have to induce 2-3 ammonia boosts and drops, one drop down from the initial set rate to that level above you show is 100% cycled if the reef had rocks/lots of surface area in tow during the wait time signified by that ending drop.
Thanks for the reply!
As a result, I just tried this with my Hanna checker (phosphate LR&ULR) and redsea ammonia test. It shows 77ppb with Hanna ULR and 0.18ppm with LR one. So it likely 0.15ppm I think.
I recently downgrade to a new tank and had heavy feeding in these days so I tested my ammonia 3 days ago, it shows likely 0.2ppm with redsea kit, 0 Nitrite and 10.7ppm Nitrate with Hanna checker. I’m kind of freaked out by the ammonia cuz I think it should be 0 then I did water change in the middle of the night, added 3 brands of good bacteria, praying everyday then test the ammonia 2-3 times a day but it stays the same.
I have a 20g tank with 2 clown and 1 dragonet, 1 clam, anemone and a hammer coral. Everyone seems happy which is a bit odd to me cuz I thought they are dying with the ammonia… then I found this theory and tried it.
So I’m your opinion that’s pretty normal and nothing will die? Should I clam down stop worrying?
I’ll put my tank’s pic also.
 

Attachments

  • B82705F7-97D1-46BB-BD35-5122B31C3F46.jpeg
    B82705F7-97D1-46BB-BD35-5122B31C3F46.jpeg
    168.6 KB · Views: 16

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,438
Reaction score
23,542
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0


thats what happens if we doubt ammonia control :)

we saved you from becoming an entrant into that thread

actually it was your open-mindedness that prevented it. none of them believed me

you diagnosed your own clues/happy tank members is prime proof.
 

Christine12138

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 10, 2022
Messages
34
Reaction score
11
Location
Melbourne
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
You don't have to test for ammonia in a running reef display

once you are done cycling, don't test for ammonia further in a display it will only lead to doubt. reef displays can't lose ammonia control. the one thing that overcomes ammonia control in a reef display is all dead fish left in the tank to rot, killed by disease or hardware or procedural errors. at no time will ammonia rise to cause the fish kill, in a normal running display reef tank.

you can trust ammonia to control itself through peaks and troughs in a running reef display. any ammonia alert thread you've ever seen for a reef display is a false alarm, they simply tested during a peak time and assumed since it wasn't zero the cycle was broken: does not occur.


for cycling, only wait for the drop, it does not have to go to zero and you do not have to induce 2-3 ammonia boosts and drops, one drop down from the initial set rate to that level above you show is 100% cycled if the reef had rocks/lots of surface area in tow during the wait time signified by that ending drop.
 

Attachments

  • BEEADD07-FDE7-48DA-89F1-27DEA8B2E709.png
    BEEADD07-FDE7-48DA-89F1-27DEA8B2E709.png
    677 KB · Views: 20
  • F64758F0-F2B4-4175-871E-8FD6B658EC40.jpeg
    F64758F0-F2B4-4175-871E-8FD6B658EC40.jpeg
    128.1 KB · Views: 18
  • 865D0626-E411-4AA9-9F5A-33EDEDA7E088.jpeg
    865D0626-E411-4AA9-9F5A-33EDEDA7E088.jpeg
    107.9 KB · Views: 22

Lasse

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 20, 2016
Messages
10,816
Reaction score
29,766
Location
Källarliden 14 D Bohus, Sweden
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
You read 0.2 ppm total ammonia. its not total ammonia that´s toxic. It is only a part of it - the NH3 part that´s toxic. The NH4 is not toxic. Here you can calculate how much toxic ammonia (NH3) you have at different pH. salinities and temperatures https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php.

Sincerely Lasse
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,438
Reaction score
23,542
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
that expensive clam is a heck of a proofer your tank is not in distress. its open, happy.

it's amazing in that example thread how folks can have five thousand in corals/claims all doing well but an nh4 reading of not zero causes them total meltdown.

we can thank old cycling science for that, the kind that trained a million reefers any ammonia above zero was danger/impending crash. false
 

Christine12138

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 10, 2022
Messages
34
Reaction score
11
Location
Melbourne
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
that expensive clam is a heck of a proofer your tank is not in distress. its open, happy.

it's amazing in that example thread how folks can have five thousand in corals/claims all doing well but an nh4 reading of not zero causes them total meltdown.

we can thank old cycling science for that, the kind that trained a million reefers any ammonia above zero was danger/impending crash. false
Thanks a lot I’m really appreciate really pull me out of my depression in these days
Finally stop the panic and happy reefing
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,438
Reaction score
23,542
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
For Dan's thread

you know who would truly enjoy measuring ammonia accurately vs the guess method: quarantine tank owners

anyone keeping marine fish in a low surface area/non live rock no live sand setup would benefit greatly from this measurement model he investigate. Display tankers too, who want to learn nuances of ammonia control, or do cycling experiments, many uses for sure.

side note: even these oceanic research scientists know to rule out .25 api ammonia as a concern :)

its neat they mention Randy in the research details.
 
Last edited:

Aquatic acrobat in your aquarium: Have you ever kept an eel?

  • I currently keep an eel in my tank.

    Votes: 27 14.2%
  • I have kept an eel in my tank in the past.

    Votes: 32 16.8%
  • I have not kept an eel in my tank, but I hope to in the future.

    Votes: 32 16.8%
  • I have no plans to keep an eel.

    Votes: 96 50.5%
  • Other.

    Votes: 3 1.6%
Back
Top