High nitrates, but low undectable phosphates help

[vdubreefer]

Hello everybody, I'm on my last limb trying to figure this out, I'm ready to test down and start over, I've got a 90 g bare bottom tank I've got three fish 1 purple tang, 1 vlamingi tang, 1 clown fish. I've had it up for three years I've never grown cheato I've never grown coraline and my corals have grown especially slow if at all, I'm so fed up with it, I'm bare bottom with minimalist aquascape and running Triton, my rodi water is clean enough, I have a theory I'd like to toss around and see what the community thinks cuz I'm so done I really am, so when I did my aquascape I ordered 85lbs of LR from brs it is the reef saver rock, and If I had to guess I bet I maybe have 60lbs in my tank if I had to guess, I just put the rest into a bin to cure about 2 weeks ago, I'm thinking I have high nitrates because I don't have enough LR in my tank.
Also for the other part of my question above I've had undectable po4 forever never had any bad green algea in my tank only brown looking nasty stuff, my corals are very pale, and grown extremely slow, and my cheato doesn't grow at all and I've got a kessil H380 over my fuge. For my skimmer I'm running a B. Magus A8, and after thinking through my equipment I chose I've decided that my skimmer is pulling WAAY too much phosphate out of the water, i can dose neophos at night to bring my level up to .03 and itll stay like that for 24hrs with the skimmer off.
If I turn my skimmer on, by the next day my po4 will have dropped back to zero,
So I am over skimming my system,

Conclusion, add more LR, and possibly a deep or just a regular non deep sand bed to refugium, and buy a new skimmer sized for my tank.

Agree or disagree ??
Share your opinion I'm open to whatever you have to say at this point.
Thank you

 

[RobZilla04]

What level nitrates do you have?

Skimmers will remove far more nitrates than phosphates. DON'T pull the skimmer.

Having as much surface area for bacteria to live on is a huge advantage, although the DT is pretty stocked. Do you have any LR or biomedia bricks/spheres in the sump? Perhaps the LR you have curing could be placed down there. Even crumbled up into smaller pieces and piled into an area with flow will be beneficial.

From the pic that appears to be cyano, not algae. Cyano is a bacteria. You can combat that with ChemiClean or RedSlime Remover. If you choose that route, follow the instructions exactly.

Organic carbon dosing can help lower nitrates. Folks have claimed in the past that it contributes to cyano, so hold off until you get confirmation on what you've pictured above.

I don't suggest tearing down that tank. The live rock has a nice color to it and probably has coralline covering it. Do you clean the rear glass with a magnet/scraper as well?

 

[PatW]

You need some phosphates in your system. You can dose with trisodium phosphate reagent grade available on Amazon, it is way cheaper than neophos. I have a skimmer and refugium with an H380 also. I have to dose to maintain any measurable phosphates at all even when I feed a fair amount of pellets.

You could take the skimmer off line. Or you could crop your macroalgae more often and keep a smaller amount that would consume less phosphate. You could also feed more. Or you could just dose more phosphate.

When my nutrients are low, I tend to get a brown or reddish algae that I can blow off of the rock with a turkey blaster. I think it is Cyanobacteria. When my nutrient levels go up, I get green hair algae. That is ok because my snails eat it up.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

Agree, what are your NO3's. Also, what do you feed the fish and how often? Food is the primary source of PO4 in a tank.

How dry do you skim? How much chaeto do you have?

There are a lot of possible approaches here, we just need a little more info.

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

i dose vinegar as a carbon source and if i dont dose phos then my nitrates will skyrocket. My understanding is the bacteria needs phos to process nitrates.

One issue that pops its head up to inform you your ratio of phos to nitrates is out of whack is cyano.

 

[vdubreefer]

What level nitrates do you have?

Skimmers will remove far more nitrates than phosphates. DON'T pull the skimmer.

Having as much surface area for bacteria to live on is a huge advantage, although the DT is pretty stocked. Do you have any LR or biomedia bricks/spheres in the sump? Perhaps the LR you have curing could be placed down there. Even crumbled up into smaller pieces and piled into an area with flow will be beneficial.

From the pic that appears to be cyano, not algae. Cyano is a bacteria. You can combat that with ChemiClean or RedSlime Remover. If you choose that route, follow the instructions exactly.

Organic carbon dosing can help lower nitrates. Folks have claimed in the past that it contributes to cyano, so hold off until you get confirmation on what you've pictured above.

I don't suggest tearing down that tank. The live rock has a nice color to it and probably has coralline covering it. Do you clean the rear glass with a magnet/scraper as well?

No3 is at 60ppm, i have maxed out my red sea kit on the high side where I dilute with 15 ml rodi water,
Also RobZilla04, I heavily disagree about skimmers removing N03, if they did, in theory I shouldn't have the problem i have because my skimmer is rated for 200 gallons or so I've got it on my 90, no offense or anything, also I do scrape my back glass probs once every 6 months or so,

 

[vdubreefer]

You need some phosphates in your system. You can dose with trisodium phosphate reagent grade available on Amazon, it is way cheaper than neophos. I have a skimmer and refugium with an H380 also. I have to dose to maintain any measurable phosphates at all even when I feed a fair amount of pellets.

You could take the skimmer off line. Or you could crop your macroalgae more often and keep a smaller amount that would consume less phosphate. You could also feed more. Or you could just dose more phosphate.

When my nutrients are low, I tend to get a brown or reddish algae that I can blow off of the rock with a turkey blaster. I think it is Cyanobacteria. When my nutrient levels go up, I get green hair algae. That is ok because my snails eat it up.

My macro doesn't grow. At all , its the size of a softball, and been that way for 3 years seems counterintuitive to trim something that isnt growing in the first place,

 

[vdubreefer]

Agree, what are your NO3's. Also, what do you feed the fish and how often? Food is the primary source of PO4 in a tank.

How dry do you skim? How much chaeto do you have?

There are a lot of possible approaches here, we just need a little more info.

I have been feeding LRS nano reef, quater sized piece split into 3 pieces for each of my 3 fish, I've tried feeding once a day, 2 a day, every other day, and every 2 days, and now I feed whenever i remember so every 1 to 2 days still havent seen a changed in No3 or po4,

I think adding surface area will help immensely

 

[vdubreefer]

i dose vinegar as a carbon source and if i dont dose phos then my nitrates will skyrocket. My understanding is the bacteria needs phos to process nitrates.

One issue that pops its head up to inform you your ratio of phos to nitrates is out of whack is cyano.

I've been dosing nopox here and there usually the day after I dose neophos to help provide a carbon source for bacteria. But its sporadic

 

[Dan_P]

Hello everybody, I'm on my last limb trying to figure this out, I'm ready to test down and start over, I've got a 90 g bare bottom tank I've got three fish 1 purple tang, 1 vlamingi tang, 1 clown fish. I've had it up for three years I've never grown cheato I've never grown coraline and my corals have grown especially slow if at all, I'm so fed up with it, I'm bare bottom with minimalist aquascape and running Triton, my rodi water is clean enough, I have a theory I'd like to toss around and see what the community thinks cuz I'm so done I really am, so when I did my aquascape I ordered 85lbs of LR from brs it is the reef saver rock, and If I had to guess I bet I maybe have 60lbs in my tank if I had to guess, I just put the rest into a bin to cure about 2 weeks ago, I'm thinking I have high nitrates because I don't have enough LR in my tank.
Also for the other part of my question above I've had undectable po4 forever never had any bad green algea in my tank only brown looking nasty stuff, my corals are very pale, and grown extremely slow, and my cheato doesn't grow at all and I've got a kessil H380 over my fuge. For my skimmer I'm running a B. Magus A8, and after thinking through my equipment I chose I've decided that my skimmer is pulling WAAY too much phosphate out of the water, i can dose neophos at night to bring my level up to .03 and itll stay like that for 24hrs with the skimmer off.
If I turn my skimmer on, by the next day my po4 will have dropped back to zero,
So I am over skimming my system,

Conclusion, add more LR, and possibly a deep or just a regular non deep sand bed to refugium, and buy a new skimmer sized for my tank.

Agree or disagree ??
Share your opinion I'm open to whatever you have to say at this point.
Thank you

Skimmers remove organic compounds. Indirectly, they remove PO4 and NO3 by removing nitrogen and phosphorous containing organic molecules that can be metabolized to PO4 and NO3. If you are wet skimming, phosphate and nitrate dissolved in the water will be removed in the skimmate, but the rate of removal is the same as that of a water change. Also, skimmers can remove just a portion of the organic compounds. Once that limit is reached, no skimmer, no matter the size will remove any more material. Your problem at first blush does NOT seem to be a skimmer size issue.

It seems unusual that a clump of Chaeto would last three years without growing, diminishing in size, dying, become a detritus sponge or become covered with other algae and cyanobacteria. Would you post a picture of this stuff?

From the pictures of the display tank, I would have guessed this tank was only 6 months old. It somehow looks sterile. Hard to explain it.

The high nitrates could be a consequence of not enough live rock, but after three years and so few fish, I am at loss to understand the high nitrates right now. What have you tried over the last three years to reduce the nitrates?

As for the low phosphate level, the coral experts will have to chime in on a target value. It may be that the rock that you have is adsorbing al the phosphate and you will need a sustainted dosing regime to saturate the rocks before you start to see accumulation in the water. Hold off on adding more rock

I agree that in one of the photos, there appears to be a slight case of cyanobacteria.

Hope things work out, but keep in mind that animal husbandry is not for everyone. Getting out of the hobby might be another option to consider.

 

[saltwaterpicaso]

following my tank is a year old and same situation low po4 and high no3 maxed out on red sea kit I have live rock from a previous build that's 4 years old and an over sized skimmer I feed pellet 2 times a day via Neptune auto feeder and feed anywhere 2 to 4 cubes a day I can not get cheato to grow just bought the arid n18 only difference is I do have coraline growing

 

[IslandLifeReef]

I have been feeding LRS nano reef, quater sized piece split into 3 pieces for each of my 3 fish, I've tried feeding once a day, 2 a day, every other day, and every 2 days, and now I feed whenever i remember so every 1 to 2 days still havent seen a changed in No3 or po4,

I think adding surface area will help immensely

Ok, that food is probably pretty low in PO4. How often do you do water changes and how much do you change?

With carbon dosing, you need to do it on a regular, i.e. daily basis for it to be effective. If you only dose NoPoX here and there, you aren't building up the bacteria that the NoPoX feeds to remove the NO3.

Also, it is important to know if you skim wet or dry. My guess based on your numbers is that your skimmate is fairly dark. Like @RobZilla04 said, skimmers will remove more organics that break down into NO3 than PO4.

I also agree with @Dan_P that 3 years of running chaeto without it growing or dying doesn't seem possible. Pictures of your sump would help.

Don't get out of the hobby however, we will be able to help you out. We just need to know a little more about your routine and tank. Let's start by hearing about your daily and weekly routine as well as a full set of parameters from your tank. I would also like to know what you mean by your RODI water being clean enough. Does that mean that it is reading 0 TDS on a meter?

 

[vdubreefer]

Skimmers remove organic compounds. Indirectly, they remove PO4 and NO3 by removing nitrogen and phosphorous containing organic molecules that can be metabolized to PO4 and NO3. If you are wet skimming, phosphate and nitrate dissolved in the water will be removed in the skimmate, but the rate of removal is the same as that of a water change. Also, skimmers can remove just a portion of the organic compounds. Once that limit is reached, no skimmer, no matter the size will remove any more material. Your problem at first blush does NOT seem to be a skimmer size issue.

It seems unusual that a clump of Chaeto would last three years without growing, diminishing in size, dying, become a detritus sponge or become covered with other algae and cyanobacteria. Would you post a picture of this stuff?

From the pictures of the display tank, I would have guessed this tank was only 6 months old. It somehow looks sterile. Hard to explain it.

The high nitrates could be a consequence of not enough live rock, but after three years and so few fish, I am at loss to understand the high nitrates right now. What have you tried over the last three years to reduce the nitrates?

As for the low phosphate level, the coral experts will have to chime in on a target value. It may be that the rock that you have is adsorbing al the phosphate and you will need a sustainted dosing regime to saturate the rocks before you start to see accumulation in the water. Hold off on adding more rock

I agree that in one of the photos, there appears to be a slight case of cyanobacteria.

Hope things work out, but keep in mind that animal husbandry is not for everyone. Getting out of the hobby might be another option to consider.

Well I don't have pictures of my cheato not growing so your going to have to take my word for it, also I'll be changing my skimmer and also adding more rock soon because I feel that will help my situation.

 

[vdubreefer]

Ok, that food is probably pretty low in PO4. How often do you do water changes and how much do you change?

With carbon dosing, you need to do it on a regular, i.e. daily basis for it to be effective. If you only dose NoPoX here and there, you aren't building up the bacteria that the NoPoX feeds to remove the NO3.

Also, it is important to know if you skim wet or dry. My guess based on your numbers is that your skimmate is fairly dark. Like @RobZilla04 said, skimmers will remove more organics that break down into NO3 than PO4.

I also agree with @Dan_P that 3 years of running chaeto without it growing or dying doesn't seem possible. Pictures of your sump would help.

Don't get out of the hobby however, we will be able to help you out. We just need to know a little more about your routine and tank. Let's start by hearing about your daily and weekly routine as well as a full set of parameters from your tank. I would also like to know what you mean by your RODI water being clean enough. Does that mean that it is reading 0 TDS on a meter?

So I perform a 15% water change once a week I wouldn't say I perform it religiously but when I am home I perform the water change once every other day I feed my fish a couple chunks of LRS nano frenzy and right now my parameters are
8.8 alkalinity
450 call
1350 mag
0.02 po4
60 no3
78 temp
35.5 salinity
8.0 ph

 

[reefer54]

think outside the box, I see by your picture, you have a reefready tank. is that true? And when was the last time you cleaned that overflow out? I say that because it happened to me. nitrates up and for no reason I could think of. that overflow could be hiding a large amount of junk in it. I had a good 4-5 inches worth in mine. Also, do you have a sump? when was the last time you cleaned that out? your tank could be hiding a lot of debris, that could be causing higher nitrates

 

[IslandLifeReef]

So I perform a 15% water change once a week I wouldn't say I perform it religiously but when I am home I perform the water change once every other day I feed my fish a couple chunks of LRS nano frenzy and right now my parameters are
8.8 alkalinity
450 call
1350 mag
0.02 po4
60 no3
78 temp
35.5 salinity
8.0 ph

Well I don't have pictures of my cheato not growing so your going to have to take my word for it, also I'll be changing my skimmer and also adding more rock soon because I feel that will help my situation.

Ok, IMO, adding more rock will not have a significant impact on reducing your NO3. The bacteria that grow on the rock are a lot more efficient at reducing ammonia and nitrite than reducing nitrate. You may be overfeeding a little, but probably not. I would recommend feeding every day, but only as much as your fish can eat in a minute or two. Also, with tangs, you should be adding nori or some other "green" food to their diet. They alone could be keeping all of the algae away. How long have you had those tangs?

For your nitrates, it really is a simple import export problem. You have mentioned that your RODI water is clean enough, but still haven't said what that means. If you are doing weekly 15% water changes and your NO3 stays at 60 ppm, then you are importing an excess of 9 ppm of NO3 to your system on a weekly basis. We need to figure out where this is coming from. I really doubt that your skimmer is the problem.

You said you have been running the triton method. What exactly are you doing and how often?

I also don't think @Dan_P was asking for pictures of your chaeto not growing, but instead, he wanted pictures of your set-up containing the chaeto and pictures of your current chaeto ball.

We are all here trying to help you without you spending excess time or money fixing your problem. We can solve this by working together.

Can you post your light settings and schedule, as well as the types of lights you are using.

#reefsquad, can anyone help him out?

 

[vdubreefer]

think outside the box, I see by your picture, you have a reefready tank. is that true? And when was the last time you cleaned that overflow out? I say that because it happened to me. nitrates up and for no reason I could think of. that overflow could be hiding a large amount of junk in it. I had a good 4-5 inches worth in mine. Also, do you have a sump? when was the last time you cleaned that out? your tank could be hiding a lot of debris, that could be causing higher nitrates

Yeah its technically a reef ready but I heavily customized it instead of a durso overflow I drilled 2 more holes to make it a bean animal and I have my return running through there as well, I siphoned that out probably last October, didnt get alot of gunk out of there. I had to unclog a stand pipe. Also I cleaned out my sump probably late December was the last time, there isnt much in there because my cheato ball isnt that big, so it's easy to clean.

 

[vdubreefer]

Ok, IMO, adding more rock will not have a significant impact on reducing your NO3. The bacteria that grow on the rock are a lot more efficient at reducing ammonia and nitrite than reducing nitrate. You may be overfeeding a little, but probably not. I would recommend feeding every day, but only as much as your fish can eat in a minute or two. Also, with tangs, you should be adding nori or some other "green" food to their diet. They alone could be keeping all of the algae away. How long have you had those tangs?

For your nitrates, it really is a simple import export problem. You have mentioned that your RODI water is clean enough, but still haven't said what that means. If you are doing weekly 15% water changes and your NO3 stays at 60 ppm, then you are importing an excess of 9 ppm of NO3 to your system on a weekly basis. We need to figure out where this is coming from. I really doubt that your skimmer is the problem.

You said you have been running the triton method. What exactly are you doing and how often?

I also don't think @Dan_P was asking for pictures of your chaeto not growing, but instead, he wanted pictures of your set-up containing the chaeto and pictures of your current chaeto ball.

We are all here trying to help you without you spending excess time or money fixing your problem. We can solve this by working together.

Can you post your light settings and schedule, as well as the types of lights you are using.

#reefsquad, can anyone help him out?

Ok I appreciate your guys efforts to help me very much.
When i feed, they are small chunks very little gets left in eaten I don't think I can trim that back any further, havent been leaving nori because of my no3 prob. But will start to do so,

I have had my purple tang since October, when my brother died.(fish nerds tribute to a lost loved one) and before I had him I had a scopus tang for about a year and a half, the scopus would beat up on the PT, so I donated my scopus to my LFS to keep my purple tang.
The vlamingi came in March 18' and the clown came is April 18'

I run a brs 6 stage RODI, and it has dual di stages and it always shows 0 TDs coming out, i assume that's clean enough that's what I meant by that, I havent however tested my rodi water or my tap water yet, i do have an icp analysis I was going to use for rodi but havent yet.

I was running core7 Triton method through 2 neptune dõse's , I've since taken those offline last week because I noticed my levels were spiking probably because some uptake has stopped cuz of my high levels, I was dosing 3ml a day with each. 1.5 ml twice a day morning and night.

I posted pictures below, please everyone will say it looks like dinos I know I know, but I don't think it is because they are dusty and not snooty, and they might be something else I'm hoping it seems when my phosphate levels are steady (skimmer off) they seem to Dissipate.

I have 2 ecotech rsdion gen 3 pros, and I'm running the coral lab Phoenix schedule from 11 am to 7:30 at night. One at 28% and one at 18%

 

[vdubreefer]

Also those pictures are from about week ago. I can get current ones tonight but just to give you an idea

 

[IslandLifeReef]

Thanks for the detailed post.

I agree that with you about the dino's. I think that could be cyano or diatoms, but probably cyano.

I would test you new saltwater before you do a water change and make sure that it really is 0ppm NO3. If it is, I would perform a 25% water change. If it's not, I would verify that your test kit is good. A 25% water change should bring your NO3 down to 45 ppm. Make sure that you blow as much detritus off of your rock work as you can.

I'm not really familiar with Radions, but I have seen the schedule for other users, and you may be running them a little low for a 90 gallon tank. I would try to slowly raise the intensity.

What I am more concerned about with your tank is the stagnant growth.

Slowly increasing your PO4 may help with that, and it may help with reducing the nitrates once things in your tank start consuming them. If you do that through dosing, just take it slow and only make one change at a time, that way you know 100% that what you did either worked or didn't.

#reefsquad
@Brew12
@saltyfilmfolks

Can anyone provide some more wisdom on how to solve @vdubreefer's tank problems?