History was made with the $24,999.99 fish!

[uhgster1]

Yea, but why?!? I sometimes find myself at a crossroad between stop punishing poor fish and oh i want that in my salt water tank. you want to bring a fish to a completely different environment that involves a) multi day acclimation and b) stick this needle in his swimmy thing to let the pressure out so his insides don’t blow up to the outside...at what point do you draw the line?

Next question, what are you going to do with lighting for this guy? Photosynthesis stops around 600 feet, at 400 feet, photosynthesis happens, but not like it does on a reef. Meaning lighting is minimal at that depth. So what is this guy gonna do in a 2 foot reef tank? Might wanna throw some SPS 500 in there; maybe some aloe Vera too.

I’m pretty sure that if you have $25,000 to put down on a few ounces of biomatter you also the means of providing the ultimate setup for it. I’ve seen a few videos of people with 3 and 5 and 20 thousand gallon aquariums. Those people that have the extravagant million dollar koi ponds come to mind.

 

[nonstopfish]

Ok. I'm not here to argue. Had enough of that on RC with dudes with 12mos experience... but debate, yes.

ALL PETS are CAPTIVE against their will.... but it's only to their BENEFIT we keep them safe and heathly and fed... IF IF IF caring for them is roughly in their natural habitat and has a great care provider

Theres a LINE when keeping pets. Taking a fish native to 400ft depths and comparing it to schooling Tangs at a depth of 40ft is a MAJOR DIFFERENCE.

What are the chances of this fish living after 1 year? 50%? Two years? 25% Three or more years? 20% More than 5 years? 10%

My fish are ALL over 5yrs old. One tang is nearing 8yrs old

Again common sense has left the building on buying fish that dont di well in captivity

I'm a HUGE disbeliever in buying Flame Angeks bc they don't do well in captivity AND they're caught using cyanide methods

Pets I wont keep for my enjoyment in Ohio:

* Elephants
* Polar Bears
* Zebras
* Lions and tigers
* Cheetahs
* a Mountain lion
* a Moose
* a Whale
* a Shark
* a Dolphin
* a Stingray
* any fish thats native to 400ft depths

Pets I would keep captive in Ohio:

* any SW fish that can safely and natively live 10÷ yrs in a well established tank, Tangs and the like. Without overcrowding

* dogs
* cats
* birds
* hamsters
* horses
* lamas
* all native breathing animals that can handle the weather's 4seasons at roughly sealevel

.

So at what depth do you draw the line as too deep to be worthy of being a pet?

Hate to break it to you, but maybe you shouldn't be in the hobby if this fish is a problem. Your tangs are larger and "need" more swimming space than this angel. Have you checked the habitat this peppermint and your tangs were collected from? They are both the same. Rocks and water. Almost all fish collected below 50-60 feet(which is a lot of them) or so are needled to have their swim bladder "adjusted" so they can be brought to the surface. If they are not it's something you should be more upset about because it greatly increases mortality rates from damage to the swim bladder and secondary infections. For example, the very common and cheap Coral Beauty Angel, is frequently collected at depths that require needling the swim bladder and they sell for $20-30. Better add that one to your list above.

I'll give you the light argument a bit, but the onus is on the buyer to light the aquarium properly. The fish isn't suffering from being at less depth/pressure than it was before so light is about all your argument has to stand on.

 

[Thales]

That just means a person has more dollars and sense. That's just stupid money.

EDITED UPDATE: Just read this fish is collected at a depth of 400-600ft. Dear Lord.... leave the little thing alone.

Acclimating it to reside in our manmade glassbox is even MORE STUPID than the money its selling for.

This is cruel and unusual punishment for this fish. We really need to look at our Hobby Addiction hard..... if we are doing this to animals to impress ourselves.

I would put this on the same category as those CRAZY GUYS who have Tigers and Lion Farms on their property. Or the CRAZY GUY who has 20 of the most dangerous snakes kept in a house. Smthg mentally-off with these people

Keeping and enjoying pets is one thing if it's in their natural environment wheelhouse...... but taking an animal and manipulating it for our own pleasure IS NOT RIGHT.

I'm not some looney P.E.T.A. person either. But enough is enough. Taking an Anglefish at 400ft and acclimating it using highly precise methods so it can maybe live a year or two in a 2ft deep glassbox is just madness.

You don't see me herding Mountain Lions in my backyard that sits 830ft above sealevel.... just sayin



.

Why doesn't that reasoning apply to almost every animal in our tanks? All animals kept in home tanks are 'to impress ourselves' right? Every animal in our tanks is manipulated for our own pleasure. These fish acclimate just as well as other fish, they are just really hard to find... and a lot of fish are needled as a matter of course. There are plenty of corals that most people shouldn't keep that are collected all day long. And there are tons of cold/cool water animals that people don't blink at keeping in warmer waters. I am not seeing why this fish is ethically special. Thanks!

 

[tautog83]

venting is not cruel ,im guessing most havent gone fishing for fish found in over 150 feet of water . its a common practice and is needed if the fish needs to be released to be able to go back down to the bottom .

 

[ZoWhat]

So at what depth do you draw the line as too deep to be worthy of being a pet?

Hate to break it to you, but maybe you shouldn't be in the hobby if this fish is a problem. Your tangs are larger and "need" more swimming space than this angel. Have you checked the habitat this peppermint and your tangs were collected from? They are both the same. Rocks and water. Almost all fish collected below 50-60 feet(which is a lot of them) or so are needled to have their swim bladder "adjusted" so they can be brought to the surface. If they are not it's something you should be more upset about because it greatly increases mortality rates from damage to the swim bladder and secondary infections. For example, the very common and cheap Coral Beauty Angel, is frequently collected at depths that require needling the swim bladder and they sell for $20-30. Better add that one to your list above.

I'll give you the light argument a bit, but the onus is on the buyer to light the aquarium properly. The fish isn't suffering from being at less depth/pressure than it was before so light is about all your argument has to stand on.

Hmmmm. Youngest fish in my tank is 5yrs old, oldest close to 10. Not seeing a problem with keeping these fish. Again I use COMMON SENSE with what I buy and how many. Hmmmmm.

This Angel fish, I betcha, wont see the year 2021



.

 

[Thales]

Hmmmm. Youngest fish in my tank is 5yrs old, oldest close to 10. Not seeing a problem with keeping these fish. Again I use COMMON SENSE with what I buy and how many. Hmmmmm.

This Angel fish, I betcha, wont see the year 2021



.

What about the huge numbers of fish in other tanks that don't make it a year? Do you feel good about supporting a hobby where the bulk of hobbyists are in it for 18 months and make in a lot of dead animals? Without all those other fish creating economy of scale, your few healthy fish could easily cost thousands or tens of thousands.
Please don't take this as attacking you, I am a moth to the flame of ethics discussions in our hobby. Thanks.

 

[jschultzbass]

it's a marketing stunt IMO but hey, it's America, marketing is legal

What I mean is they must have already had a buyer ready before putting it on the site. Basically it wasn't a "Hey we are offering this fish for 25K" and some random online buyer bought it. No that's probably not what happened. The person that collects the fish may have been in contact with LA to "make the sale" since LA has a lot of customers, it knows the highest end customers that would be interested in this fish.

I think the same thing! The fish was pre-sold, they just wanted to establish a high price point for future sales... I doubt they actually got that price.

I don't think so. A couple years ago they sold a "trident tail" Achilles tang for a lot more than you'd think and someone complained on the Liveaquaria section that it went so fast that it MUST have been presold. Keven Kohen (director of Liveaquaria and one of the most respected names in the business) came on and completely refuted that. EVERY fish sold on liveaquaria is sold to general public. Whoever carts and checks out first owns it. Period. Was his response.

 

[ZoWhat]

What about the huge numbers of fish in other tanks that don't make it a year? Do you feel good about supporting a hobby where the bulk of hobbyists are in it for 18 months and make in a lot of dead animals?

I say "woe" to those who take up this hobby on whimsical entertainment bc they saw a friends "cool tank"... and are in and out due to failures in 18mos.

I also get frustrated with those who live I a 400ft square apart and have dogs bred to run. And they walk them for 5mins after work. Woe to them also.

Irresponsibility......the American Dream

In life, we're all held accountable for our actions....eventually

 

[Thales]

I say "woe" to those who take up this hobby on whimsical entertainment bc they saw a friends "cool tank"... and are in and out due to failures in 18mos.


Irresponsibility......the American Dream

How do you support and participate and benefit from/in a hobby that you think is irresponsible?

 

[albano]

...someone complained on the Liveaquaria section that it went so fast that it MUST have been presold. Keven Kohen (director of Liveaquaria and one of the most respected names in the business) came on and completely refuted that. EVERY fish sold on liveaquaria is sold to general public. Whoever carts and checks out first owns it. Period. Was his response.

What would you expect him to say?

 

[jschultzbass]

What would you expect him to say?

Guarantee he's not lying about it. That would be extremely bad for business. And what would even be the point of risk being caught lying for this?

 

[Jon Fishman]

Topics regarding personal finances seem to be the hottest of hot-button around here

 

[albano]

Guarantee he's not lying about it. That would be extremely bad for business. And what would even be the point of risk being caught lying for this?

Do you think it would hurt business to tell the truth, if I’m right?

 

[Silver14SS]

How do you support and participate and benefit from/in a hobby that you think is irresponsible?

Because he’s not irresponsible, everyone else is

 

[Tuffyyyyy]

What about the huge numbers of fish in other tanks that don't make it a year? Do you feel good about supporting a hobby where the bulk of hobbyists are in it for 18 months and make in a lot of dead animals? Without all those other fish creating economy of scale, your few healthy fish could easily cost thousands or tens of thousands.
Please don't take this as attacking you, I am a moth to the flame of ethics discussions in our hobby. Thanks.

I'm not the poster you were talking to but I would like to weigh in. The number of wild-caught fish that die in this hobby is really getting to me. I'm not sure if I'll ever buy another fish, and absolutely will never purchase a wild-caught one. I couldn't care less about the price of the fish, as long as I know that it wasn't plucked from the wild.

 

[JonoB]

You don't see me herding Mountain Lions in my backyard that sits 830ft above sealevel.... just sayin



.

Not a great analogy...Mountain Lions live at all sorts of elevations.

 

[Thales]

I'm not the poster you were talking to but I would like to weigh in. The number of wild-caught fish that die in this hobby is really getting to me. I'm not sure if I'll ever buy another fish, and absolutely will never purchase a wild-caught one. I couldn't care less about the price of the fish, as long as I know that it wasn't plucked from the wild.

Thanks!

 

[sde1500]

COMMON SENSE

You like to keep throwing this word around, and insinuating that "clearly" the person unknown to you who purchased this is lacking in it. Now, obviously, someone can have a lot of money that they didn't have to be shrewd to earn. In many cases, though that is not true. I'd guess that someone swinging this type of money this fast for a fish that is admittedly only moderately good looking is very dedicated to the hobby. Ted, humaguy on RC, comes to mind. He lost his Pep, but he has a mindblowing collection of fish.

I don't get why you immediately assume the fish won't make much longer than a year. Maybe it is hard to care for, but there is documented success caring for them.

 

[erk]

Just so people can stop stating deeper depths of collection. The C. boylei comes from 53-120 m (174-394 ft). Still a significant depth, but there are many other fish that come from this depth or deeper. The Dr. Seuss fish comes from these depths. Same as some anthias. The Borbonius anthias comes from even deeper (200-300 m).

http://fishbase.org/summary/Centropyge-boylei.html
http://fishbase.org/summary/Odontanthias-borbonius.html

 

[albano]

Maybe it is hard to care for, but there is documented success caring for them.

Where can I find that?