Home solar power installations?

Mattrg02

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
1,620
Reaction score
1,088
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
It really boils down to what your utility’s cost per kWh is vs your potential solar array cost per kWh. Forget 25 year warranty, know that you will be replacing an expensive inverter in 10 years, so factor that in.

None of our Members are paying off their systems. Our cost per kWh is about 10cents.

You should take a look at the rate of increase in electricity over the last 50 years and compare to the rate you might get in the stock market. Personally, I’d invest that money. :)
 

norfolkgarden

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Messages
2,695
Reaction score
7,091
Location
Norfolk, Virginia, USA
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Soo
Did you finally pull the trigger?

Do you like it?

Is is a pain to maintain?

Do you have to mow or weed eat under it?

Inquiring minds want to know.
 

MnFish1

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
22,558
Reaction score
21,785
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
I'm contemplating a home solar system. Had a guy come and talk to me today. Seems to make sense, from his talk, but I'd like some feedback from people who have had them installed.

Got solar? How do you like it?

BE VERY CAREFUL. We had a guy come out and give an estimate for our house and based on our energy use - the cost was 99,000.00. But -the way he 'quickly' described it - supposedly - 1. The installation increases the value of your house by that amount (according to our bank - and a real estate appraiser - it does not). 2. The estimated savings were a bit of a 'shell game' - when you really look into the details - as the panels deteriorate over time - by the time the loan is paid off - you will likely have to replace them. 3. I won't mention the company name - but make sure you use a reputable, local well regarded company. We eventually cancelled our order - but there was just a news story about the company involved - how people got their panels partly installed - but now they cant get ahold of the company - nor can they have the power company connect.

There are several good articles online - that describe the process - and what to look for in a solar company. I would suggest that before you sign on the dotted line - that you do a lot of research. Good luck though - it sounds like a 'great idea' but when push comes to shove - we decided it wasn't worth it.
 

MnFish1

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
22,558
Reaction score
21,785
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
I'm no greenie... sure, I like a clean environment, but if it doesn't make financial sense, I'm not going to do it. As for cost justification, I've been saying much the same thing for many years. Not so sure that's true anymore.

1st, dismiss anything you've said about leasing... I'm not going to do that.

After rebates and tax incentives, I'd be financing just under 40k @ 3% for 20 years. Scary, I know. Hear me out. Payments on that will be just over $200. I"m paying $450 a month on average for electricity now. With a grid tied system, calculated to produce about the same amount of electricity as I use annually, my average electric bill will be $15 (that's the connection fee). So... for 20 years, I'll save over half of what I'm paying... if electricity stays at the same cost (and no, it won't). System is fully guaranteed for 25 years, so, even if the entire system dies immediately after the guarantee expires, I'll pay virtually nothing for electricity for 5 years. At my age, with decent maintenance, I believe I can expect this system to last me the rest of my life.

So. 225 (or so) savings a month, X 20 years, = 54k in savings on a 40k investment, the day it's paid for, it'll have paid for itself, plus 35%.

Add in just 5 years of $30 electrical payments (assuming the connection cost doubles), and you can add another 25k to that savings. Based on my reading, I expect the system to last longer than that, but for this, we'll just say it's going to die the day the guarantee ends.

If I do nothing, and the price of electricity doesn't go up a penny (fat chance), I'll spend 135,000 on electricity in the next 25 years.

As for system price decreasing... Rebates and tax incentives are rapidly drying up (Fed tax rebate expires in 2021. My power company ends their rebate in 2020, assuming it's not extended). Will prices on panels keep going down? Sure. By 80% in 7 years? No way... half the cost of installing a system is labor. No way that's going down, and the price of the panels has been flattening out for several years now.

Oh, and moving? They'll take me out of this place in a pine box. I'm not going anywhere.


I forgot to mention - the federal credits are only if you have 'earned income'. For example - we learned subsequently (after ordering) - that we wouldn't be eligible for anywhere near as high a 'credit' as he mentioned. BTW - your calculations are not entirely correct - With Principal and interest - your investment isn't 40K - its almost 54K. If you then take into account the decline in efficiency - and if you need to replace panels - etc etc the cost/benefit ratio declines.
 

Will Wohlers

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
May 4, 2018
Messages
693
Reaction score
727
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I have a 10kW system. The power company here in the sticks is crazy expensive. We use to pay about 600 bucks a month to power our 4500sqft home. We average about 4 kwh per month and the power company buys back the extra power. We make about 1500 extra a year just in buy back. The system with federal and state incentives cost us about 15k out of pocket but with the cost of power here it was an easy decision. Without the buy back the system essentially has paid for itself in 2 years. Plus with the huge oversize system we went with we will never be able to go over 10kW even with running metal halides and crap in my 500 sqft fish room. Totally a great investment while increasing your homes value at the same time.
 

Johnd651

Getting back in after 10+ years
View Badges
Joined
Oct 29, 2019
Messages
794
Reaction score
911
Location
Utica, NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Feel free to ask me any questions you might have. I am on my second system. First was a roof mount in SLC, UT. Second is a ground mount in upstate NY. Sun boy inverter on the first, solar edge now with optimizes to avoid the issues of series loss.

I think I will jump on the PC in the morning... this is going to take forever on the phone.
 

fyler83

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 31, 2017
Messages
225
Reaction score
98
Location
Hainesport
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I just had 70 panels on my roof. With the federal tax credit of 30% and if I put all srecs back at loan ( as long as they stay where they have been) and make my $400 a month payment will be paid off in 54 months. I will still get another 66 months worth of srecs to put in my pocket. Talking to pseg to go on a budget plan would of been closer to$450 a month with no guarantee of not owning them at end of year. If you can afford to purchase vs lease it is a good idea
 

Brian_68

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 5, 2019
Messages
707
Reaction score
728
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
If you can choose your own electric supplier like here in PA you can select a 100% renewable option and avoid the large down payment if you are doing it for the environment. It is based on solar credits that support the industry as you can't actually direct electricity only from solar. For me it actually lowered my bill 10% by selecting the 100% renewable option over the default supplier, a win win. Sure beats putting down 20k+.
 

Johnd651

Getting back in after 10+ years
View Badges
Joined
Oct 29, 2019
Messages
794
Reaction score
911
Location
Utica, NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Now that I am on a PC, this will be easier to type. There's a lot to consider.

Our first system was thanks to a door-to-door salesmen. We were already considering it, but had looked at a lease. Once the salesmen came by, we did a lot more homework. Ended up going with a ownership option, with some financing. The lease option sounded good, but once I started asking about "after the lease" no company had an answer. Do they take them? Do we keep them? Restoring the roof structure? etc. So we went out and got a couple of quotes, and looked for a knowledgeable salesmen... I figured if the sales guy knew something, then the company would too. We lived in Utah, and had a south facing roof. Went with 100% coverage of our electric bill. At the time, individual monitoring was not a big thing yet so we ended up with a SMA Sunnyboy inverter with 2 strings (9 and 10 panels). We used Q-Cell panels with Iron ridge racking (the only issue we ever had with racking was one of the plastic end caps kept falling out...company covered under warranty). Our utility did net metering (meter spins backwards during the day, forwards at night and you basically have a kWh bank). Our monthly bill ended up being less then our monthly electric bill (we did still have to pay the utility connection fee every month which was $11 or so. And as far as cost, with inflation everything goes up... we figured we may end up paying electric at some point in the future but a) it would be less with the solar offset and b) our loan payment was set and could be prepaid vs increasing electric costs. This system went over a new roof, and normally shingled roofs have a 30 year lifespan. The solar panels have a longer lifespan, but they do degrade. In this case there was a 20 year warranty, with 25 year degradation warranty of 15% max in 25 years.

The DC wiring was on the roof and went into a Solardeck 0799-5G wiring bracket. From there it went into the attic and into the garage. Inverter was in the garage, and an AC line ran from the garage to the meter panel where it back fed the grid through a standard circuit breaker. The inverter itself had anti-islanding, so lineman wouldn't get shocked, but there was no rapid shutdown back then (ie fire melts DC wiring while sun is out causing major issues). We did end up selling the house, and as part of the sale we had a solar clause.. a) price goes up by what we have left on the system of the house and we pay it off or b) they assume the loan. The new owners choose the lump sum option, and have loved it.

ut.png

Our second system was a ground mount in upstate NY about a year ago. We have 9 acres, so I wanted something I could easily clean the snow off of, and work in if need be. I also have an 1886 victorian farm house so I didn't want to put it on the house. I thought about doing it myself, however, once you factor in machine rental, permits, etc. the savings would be minimal and the time and frustration of trying to find some of these items would be not worth it. It was a bigger project that we bid out to multiple companies, with prices ranging a span of almost $30k from cheapest to most expensive. What we found was that every electrician "could install solar." But what we really found was that not everyone of them was really well versed and had the fancy extras like monitoring (our neighbor down the road used a local electrician and is regretting it. The system works, but he's got no warranty or panel monitoring. All he has to go off of is his actual electric bill.) I did put out a very specific list of demands though as part of the install. Generator ready, about 500 ft away from the house, buried utilities, extra conduit in ground for expansion, exterior pass-through panel, 200A panel upgrade inside, and monitoring. Oh and an additional electrical panel at the solar. Price wise we ended up $3 dollars under what our average monthly electric bill was.

We did look into battery backup, but found they cost about $10k each, and last about 10 years. We would need 2, so even a decent generator, fuel, and paying for electric via net metering wouldn't cost us as much as the battery backup, but its ready if the price of batteries ever does drop. The company we chose is the 2nd biggest in NY, and mainly does solar farms. They own all the equipment needed, so they were one of the cheapest options but with the most experience. It took about 4 one day visits for survey, piling placement, racking setup, and then a week of work for the actual install. It was a Solar edge inverter with optimizers on each panel (prevents the issues associated with panel being wired in series). It was 3 parallel circuits. (Enphase microinverters were more per panel). The panels were Q-Cell industrial versions this time around. We also looked into tracking ground mounts but the price of an additional couple panels on stationary mounts was cheaper then tracking for the same output. The inverter was mounted outside with the panels. Also, there is a 60A exterior breaker panel out there now for additional power. The panels have rapid shutdown at the panel now, so in the event of loss of electric they only put out a single 1W signal vs full power like older panels.

At the house, we buried the utilities from the pole and then out to the panels. There is a monitoring system that monitors our electric consumption in the house and production (white box on right). The 60A panel at the solar just has its own shutoff wired directly into the meter (between panel and white box). We have a generator outlet that when switched on, is completely isolated from the solar (and utilities). The only thing is right now we have grass under them (trees are gone). I do want to put down weed barrier and do stone just so i dont have to trim around it.
house.jpg

Monitoring - We have some snow out there right now.
monitor.png

monitor2.PNG


Final System (Trees are now gone)
solar.jpg
 

Johnd651

Getting back in after 10+ years
View Badges
Joined
Oct 29, 2019
Messages
794
Reaction score
911
Location
Utica, NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Oh as for cost recently... with the tariffs that were put in place (both systems were pre-tariff) there has been some cost issues. I know recently someone was looking for a much smaller system, with a much easier install, and they were getting quote similar to my setup because of the 30% price increase.
 

TheOne

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 1, 2019
Messages
792
Reaction score
1,554
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
My biggest complaint with it is the Solar Panels degrade over time so eventually they will have to be replaced. Then you add up the cost of replacing the batteries and maintaining everything and it just doesn't make economic sense. I think there is still along way to go before it ever becomes feasible.

Plus most people that run them end up upgrading all of their appliances to more energy efficient models and If you just did that to begin with you would be saving on your energy bill anyway. I run most of my major energy devices on natural gas and my bill is already cut in half just from that alone.
 

Michael Gray

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 18, 2019
Messages
1,988
Reaction score
1,258
Location
Bay Area, Brentwood CA
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Here in california it was well worth it it cost me 21k. In summer my bill would be 400+ a month. Mind you I got 7k back through tax credit.. but now my bill in summer is max $20. Sometimes it's no $ due and that is with AC cranking out here in east bay area. Just dont lease it. The company will get the credit. Buy it and your good plus selling your home, someone coming in will love to have solar so they dont have to pay for electricity.
 

Brian_68

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 5, 2019
Messages
707
Reaction score
728
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I have a 10kW system. The power company here in the sticks is crazy expensive. We use to pay about 600 bucks a month to power our 4500sqft home. We average about 4 kwh per month and the power company buys back the extra power. We make about 1500 extra a year just in buy back. The system with federal and state incentives cost us about 15k out of pocket but with the cost of power here it was an easy decision. Without the buy back the system essentially has paid for itself in 2 years. Plus with the huge oversize system we went with we will never be able to go over 10kW even with running metal halides and crap in my 500 sqft fish room. Totally a great investment while increasing your homes value at the same time.
With a 10kW system I have to ask how you are getting 4kwh per month? A system that big produces about 1.5kwh per month or less (29 - 46 kwh/day).

 

Johnd651

Getting back in after 10+ years
View Badges
Joined
Oct 29, 2019
Messages
794
Reaction score
911
Location
Utica, NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
With a 10kW system I have to ask how you are getting 4kwh per month? A system that big produces about 1.5kwh per month or less (29 - 46 kwh/day).


I have an 11.73 kW system and here are my production numbers in MW for this year.
Screenshot_20191124-050836_SolarEdge.jpg
 

MnFish1

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
22,558
Reaction score
21,785
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
It will be interesting - The old saying - you dont get something for nothing - comes to mind. For example - the value of the house - Does solar really increase the value of the house? the people selling solar say 'yes''. Banks and appraisers say no - (and this is different based on land based vs roof installations')

Second - The rebates - don't apply to everyone.

Third. - Will the promised system actually deliver what they say it will - when push came to shove - our proposed system would not provide our energy bill - let alone - a rebate.

I think there is a huge difference if you're on the west coast with sun all the time
 

Johnd651

Getting back in after 10+ years
View Badges
Joined
Oct 29, 2019
Messages
794
Reaction score
911
Location
Utica, NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
It will be interesting - The old saying - you dont get something for nothing - comes to mind. For example - the value of the house - Does solar really increase the value of the house? the people selling solar say 'yes''. Banks and appraisers say no - (and this is different based on land based vs roof installations')

Second - The rebates - don't apply to everyone.

Third. - Will the promised system actually deliver what they say it will - when push came to shove - our proposed system would not provide our energy bill - let alone - a rebate.

I think there is a huge difference if you're on the west coast with sun all the time

Very true... there is a lot of homework that goes into it. I know in Utah it did increase our home value, but it also takes a like minded buyer. (We had one potential buyer ask us to take them off.)

As far as rebates, you still had to pay in the amount to get it back, but it could be spread over multiple years worth of tax returns. Pre-tariff, it really made a dent in the pricing. Now with tariffs of 30% on the panels, your 30% rebate is just something you are paying to yourself.

Our system does come with a 10% warranty. If production drops under 10% for a 12 month period vs predictions they will compensate. In our case this did happen since NY weather varies so much, even 100 miles apart. The company will be covering the difference in cost and installing additional panels at no cost.

Location is key. We had a much smaller system in Utah and were producing a lot more then a similar sized system in NY. At peak we still get the kWh, its just a matter of time of actual producing daylight hours and of course the weather is huge to. In NY, predictions factor in that you lose production in the winter due to snow.
 

A worm with high fashion and practical utility: Have you ever kept feather dusters in your reef aquarium?

  • I currently have feather dusters in my tank.

    Votes: 64 36.8%
  • Not currently, but I have had feather dusters in my tank in the past.

    Votes: 59 33.9%
  • I have not had feather dusters, but I hope to in the future.

    Votes: 25 14.4%
  • I have no plans to have feather dusters in my tank.

    Votes: 26 14.9%
  • Other.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
Back
Top