How I would start a new tank

[7of9]

7of9 great post. (I also like 7 of 9) Our tanks don't have to resemble the sea exactly but close is better.

This is what the sea looks like from the Florida Keys to the Caribbean, Bahamas, and the South Pacific.













See that last picture. I think that was the Caribbean, but notice all the fish fry. Those tiny fish are loaded with oil and living gut bacteria and it's like an all you can eat buffet. Almost every fish eat those all day long and one reason fish don't have to put themselves on disease threads asking for help.

Notice the hiding places all over the place? Fish go in all of them. Notice any Home Depot PVC elbows?
I don't either.

In the 5th picture see all the "mulm" or dying algae on the mangrove roots? Healthy stuff. In the last picture we also see hair algae. Maybe we should dose Hydrogen Peroxide.

This following picture I took off one of the outermost and small Hawaiian Islands. More hair algae. OMG. Horrible.

My last (and first) tank back in 2008 had hair algae. I just pulled it/pruned it out where I could, but I left a little in my display tank because my decorator crab liked to put it on top of his shell and he looked like Don King with it on when he would proudly perch on top of my rock and wave his little claws at me.

Every healthy garden has some weeds. You pull what you can and call the rest "wildflowers."

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Unless you're not paying attention, bacteria and microfauna are the foundation to any successful reef tank.

@PaulB thanks for reminding the masses something that seems to get lost in all other noise.

Starting with dry rock isn't the worst thing, you just need to know how to seed it properly. I used to grab a rock from an established tank, or even a cup of sand that's teaming with bacteria and fauna. It's not as instant as live rock from an oceans reef, but gets you started faster than bacteria and pods in a bottle.

 

[Paul B]

thanks for reminding the masses something that seems to get lost in all other noise.

Sisterlimonpot, it always amazes me the silly things many people worry about and disregard the important stuff.

This hobby is simple but many of us just have to make it complicated and rely almost completely on commercial stuff.

What can I buy to add to my tank to eliminate this or that? Usually, we can't or shouldn't add anything but are constantly bombarded with advertisements. (sorry people who make aquarium stuff)

I normally never add anything except some 2 part calcium and alk which I normally forget about anyway.

I do have a container of rusty nails that I add for iron, but don't tell anyone because you can't buy that.

 

[Mr_Knightley]

I started my current tank with with 90% dry rock and it has only just now, three years wet, finished it's uglies. In the meantime I've grown acros and kept some advanced organisms, but the tank was never particularly healthy. During my recent trips to the beach I have collected shells, sand and hermits from the Intercoastal Waterway and put them in all of my tanks to bolster my bacteria.
At night, if I shine a flashlight into the tank, the water is 10% mysis shrimp and copepods. I've got little organisms for every job, and though my sand isn't pearly white, I love watching my giant hermits grazing along the glass and seeing the countless little organisms darting between the grains. It's my favorite thing to do, I discover something amazing every night.

I will start my next tank with 100% real live rock. The fake stuff just isn't worth the trouble.

 

[jda]

If new people are reading this and still buying all of the garbage about "pests" that dry/dead rock sellers have put out there, then just do this.

The only real pests that you might have trouble with are an occasional mantis shrimp. These are easy to catch with a bottle trap and many never end up being a problem anyway. If you are worried about living pests, then have your rock shipped in newspaper. The crabs, shrimp, etc. crawl out of the rock. The rock will have some die-off from this, but most everything lives, but you do need to cure the rock outside of an established tank. This takes a few days and some effort, but not near as much as fighting dinos or hair algae. If you have your rock shipped in water, then drink a coke and use the bottle as a trap for shrimp if you get any - there are PLENTY of people who want your captured shrimp to keep for pets.

As for algae pests... give me a break? BRS and the other clowns who talked about this could not have been more wrong. I have never seen more types of algae than in a sterile dry/dead rock tank. The stuff can get in on any frag plug, with any coral, snail or crab shell, so better to not have unoccupied space for it to colonize. You better have a plan for consumers to eat algae no matter how your tank was started.

Even if you do not get live rock from the ocean, even nasty rock from a local tank can help a lot, after some work. Rock that is just covered in some film algae and bacteria will not give way to hair, dinos or the like - the ground is already improved - it does not even have to be covered in coralline. I can get into some easy ways to cook nasty local rock and get it back to 100%, even if it is covered in all kinds of gross stuff - yes, it is called cooking so that you can google how people used to do it. It does not involve heat, stoves or any of that stuff and some people want to rename the process to keep the idiots from baking rock at 350... but I firmly believe that if you want to idiot-proof something, there are always bigger idiots. People don't throw baseballs in their tanks for the balling method, or think that Berlin only works in German, so I don't really have time for morons.

I take free rock when I can get it - especially Tonga, Marshall Island (the best ever) or Fiji. It goes in a dark bin with heater, powerhead and protein skimmer for many months while I dose Lanthanum Chloride to get all of the po4 out of the rock and allow the stuff on it to die and the microfauna to clean out the rock in absence of other food source. It works great. This is cooking rock.

 

[Paul B]

Jda, great post but I wouldn't really call Hobbyists Idiots and Morons. Just uninformed people or people with different theories.

I disagree with probably 97% of most of the stuff I read on forums, especially on disease threads which is why I almost never go on those because I would never allow my fish to get sick in the first place. But when I started at this, I lost plenty of fish and did many things that people would call me a Moron for today. Maybe I was.

Look at some of the medications I used from my Log in 1974




Look at the fish I kept in my 40 gallon tank. (I did change to a 100 gallon about this time, I don't remember exactly when) That tank morphed into my present 125 gallon tank which is still running.

French Angel, Copperband "AND" a Moorish Idol.

 

[jda]

I am OK with calling people idiots and morons who, instead of reading, learning and figuring how to cook rock, just read the title and throw some in the oven. If some want to call them future Darwin Award Winners, then so be it. To each their own, I guess.

This is mostly where my name calling stops.

Why didn't you send Jay a DM to help with those diseases? In all seriousness, even when I started in the 90s, there was like one book on marine fish diseases (photos were so bad that nearly everything looked the same) and the rest you learned from the flyers inside of the meds for sale on store shelves. I pass no judgement on anything that anybody did in the early days since I know that I could have done no better.

 

[7of9]

I consider myself essentially a newbie since my first and only tank was years ago. There is so much conflicting information and theories out there to sift through.

I think most people getting into this hobby have the best of intentions and want to minimize the issues they'll face. We also see that the majority of builds start with dry rock and that this gives those doing the build a lot of control over their aquascape.

Also, speaking as a newbie who has gone the TBS live rock route before, there is a fear factor there. This was back when bristle worms were considered bad hitchikers and I was paranoid that there were nasties hiding in every nook and cranny and that my thumb was going to get busted open by a mantis shrimp. If you're new to keeping a saltwater tank, it can seem safer and easier to avoid those kinds of issues by using dry rock.

I think at this point there seem to be two competing theories out there. One is a very chemistry-based, technology heavy method where there is a lot of equipment and testing needed with precise dosing and measurement and a lot of control over every aspect of the environment, from bringing in dry rock, dosing the bacteria you want, quarantining and treating everything that comes in, etc. It's like the parent who has the bottle of hand sanitizer handy at every function and their kids are tech-savvy.

And there are a LOT of really great looking tanks using this method.

Then there's an approach that is, to outside eyes, a little more messy and fly by the seat of your pants. It's based in trying to create something closer to what the ocean is like with more biodiversity. I'd say it's more focused on the biology than the chemistry and engineering and requires more knowledge in that area and more observation versus testing and dosing. These people often include portions of the wild ocean in their tanks through rock, sand, and introduction of shells and other media to bring in a mix of bacteria from the sea. It can look a lot more difficult to those who don't live anywhere near an ocean. These are like the parents who send their kids out to play in the mud and keep them off ipads as long as possible.

And there are a LOT of really great looking tanks using this method.

Just like parenting, I don't think there's a right way and a wrong way, but everyone has to figure out what works for them and deal with the positives and negatives of their choices.

 

[KrisReef]

Nman, remember this will be my 33rd surgery so i am used to working using one arm one leg and 9 fingers.

How long does your wife usually keep you in QT before she lets you back into the house?
Speedy recovery sir!

 

[Paul B]

Shes used to it as I tore and broke just about everything over the last 50 years.

 

[atoll]

Oops moment there sorry.

 

[atoll]

Paul has it right and I have been doing similar to him since the dawn of reefing time. We are the same age but he got into a couple of years before me. I followed the "experts" of the day who gave both good and bad advice as I found out. Parasites like whitespot would also plague us.

I decided to think outside the box, the excepted norms of the day and looked for another way, but what. I had an Eureka moment the answers were staring me in the face and I sat down to consult mother nature.

She is the true expert and had all the answers. All I had to do was to follow her teaching as much as was reasonably possible. Out came that tuffa rock in went live rock. Much thought went into my reefscapes along with the fish that would inhabit these reefing homes.

I made my owns foods and mends were banned, so no more copper. Buy fresh foods from the fish markets was considered a no no. I was told I would introduce all manner diseases, well am still waiting 40 plus years later.

That's it in a nutshell. My philosophy to reef is to follow the true expert after all she has had millions of years to perfect her ways. I guarantee you won't find a better way than her methods and teachings.

 

[ScottD]

Paul what are your thoughts on your way method and captive bred fishes. Does that change in regards to their immunity?

 

[Paul B]

Yes. A captive bred fish may not have a strong immune system depending on what he was eating. I would just feed food with living bacteria which "may" not come in commercial food. I would try fresh clams, that you can freeze, live blackworms or better, white worms, even earthworms are great. In a few weeks that fish should get full immunity but remember a fish needs to be introduced to parasites to be immune from them.

 

[pezgal]

@Paul B as always sage advice. Write that sci-fi book, i'll be in line to read it! Hope your surgery goes well. You are a treasure! All your advice over the past couple of years has got me to year 3 with my tank and now i barely do anything but look at it and enjoy it. Thank you, thank you, thank you... Cant say it enough!

 

[Paul B]

I think at this point there seem to be two competing theories out there. One is a very chemistry-based, technology heavy method where there is a lot of equipment and testing needed with precise dosing and measurement and a lot of control over every aspect of the environment, from bringing in dry rock, dosing the bacteria you want, quarantining and treating everything that comes in, etc. It's like the parent who has the bottle of hand sanitizer handy at every function and their kids are tech-savvy.

Probably most people go this route, especially Noobs because IMO they don't have a grasp on nature and fall for the advertising which of course is not their fault. If we read many, or most of the threads they start out something like:

OMG I see a spot on my French Angel that I put in my 75 gallon tank that I started two weeks ago right after my cycle ended. I found him in a 1 1/2" PVC elbow.

Or: AAAAAAAaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhggggg........ I think I am getting cyano....I started the tank almost a month ago using ammonia for the cycle, dry rock and bottled bacteria. I also add $250.00 worth of pods every week for my mandarin.

Or: HELP!!!!! Hair algae. It's at least a half inch long so I bought a rabbit fish and sea hare. I removed the rock and soaked it in bleach and hydrocloric acid then left it outside in the sun for a week. After I again put it back in the tank, the algae grew back and the rabbitfish stung me. The sea hare died and my cat ate it so I added "Algae Gone" but the only thing gone was my wife who divorced me and ran away with our tank sitter and my cleaning Lady quit after my dog drank some of the tank water and got the runs.

Or: Getting out of the hobby. Got a job at Home Depot loading toilet bowls into Mini Vans. Everything for sale.
All fish died and I have no reason why but the tank smells like paint thinner.

I feel we should just follow nature and perhaps watch a little National Geographic and notice how the sea bottom is supposed to look like. Watch how all those fish dart into holes as the divers approach. See how they nibble on any particle they find and rarely eat dry pellets or flakes.

They hunt all day and constantly pick at the rocks which always have something to eat on them and never encounter PVC fittings. See how most of them have a rounded appearance because female fish are always producing eggs. All the fish, except the schooling fish stay near the rocks that have holes or caves in them so they can get away from those sharks and moray eels that are constantly trying to eat them.

Fish also never find pure white clean rocks and if thy found one, they would stay far away from it. Put one of those rocks in the sea and nothing would go near it for weeks and PVC fittings really gives them the horrors.

 

[Paul B]

Write that sci-fi book, i'll be in line to read it!

I have actually been trying to find a plot that would be appropriate and interesting.

now i barely do anything but look at it and enjoy it. Thank you, thank you, thank you... Cant say it enough!

Thats great news and exactly what you are supposed to do. Enjoy it.
My tank just came out of what many would say a horrible cycle of the uglies which I caused by my stupidity when I added an encrusting, invasive sponge maybe 10 years ago. I tolerated it for a long time but I could barely keep anything but fish and sponge.

After the removal of the sponge which was an arduous process of scrubbing the encrusted rock in sea water and leaving the rock outside in the cold winter the residual sponge in the rock caused a massive growth of dinos, so bad strings of it encased in bubbles covered the tank and reached to the surface. The sponge was photosynthetic so much of the rock was clean as it was in the dark. But through all that, I found enjoyment watching the tank transform as it went through it. Most people would have dumped it out and started again or filled it with chemicals. But I had creatures in there and bacteria from when Nixon was President and that stuff was still alive as well as most of my gorgonians, leathers and soft corals however all my SPS (which I didn't have much) succumbed to the sponge which covered it and oozed toxins when I cut it. The fish didn't seem to care one way or the other.



I think my 32 year old fireclown enjoyed the blue sponge as it encased his anemone like a blanket.



All at once that disappeared and it happened a couple of days after I did a large water change to dump out much of the ASW and added NSW as the ASW didn't have any nutrients in it but it eliminated the sponge.
Now I am again proud of my tank and it is pristine with the corals growing quickly and reaching to their limit.

I also realize many people rely on chemicals and medications to run their tanks and as you said, some of them are gorgeous and make me jealous. But none of those chemicalized tanks are very old. At least I have not found one yet as natural is forever but anything man made isn't. OK,, Maybe the pyramids.

 

[CoastalTownLayabout]

I have actually been trying to find a plot that would be appropriate and interesting.


Thats great news and exactly what you are supposed to do. Enjoy it.
My tank just came out of what many would say a horrible cycle of the uglies which I caused by my stupidity when I added an encrusting, invasive sponge maybe 10 years ago. I tolerated it for a long time but I could barely keep anything but fish and sponge.

After the removal of the sponge which was an arduous process of scrubbing the encrusted rock in sea water and leaving the rock outside in the cold winter the residual sponge in the rock caused a massive growth of dinos, so bad strings of it encased in bubbles covered the tank and reached to the surface. The sponge was photosynthetic so much of the rock was clean as it was in the dark. But through all that, I found enjoyment watching the tank transform as it went through it. Most people would have dumped it out and started again or filled it with chemicals. But I had creatures in there and bacteria from when Nixon was President and that stuff was still alive as well as most of my gorgonians, leathers and soft corals however all my SPS (which I didn't have much) succumbed to the sponge which covered it and oozed toxins when I cut it. The fish didn't seem to care one way or the other.



I think my 32 year old fireclown enjoyed the blue sponge as it encased his anemone like a blanket.



All at once that disappeared and it happened a couple of days after I did a large water change to dump out much of the ASW and added NSW as the ASW didn't have any nutrients in it but it eliminated the sponge.
Now I am again proud of my tank and it is pristine with the corals growing quickly and reaching to their limit.

I also realize many people rely on chemicals and medications to run their tanks and as you said, some of them are gorgeous and make me jealous. But none of those chemicalized tanks are very old. At least I have not found one yet as natural is forever but anything man made isn't. OK,, Maybe the pyramids.

What about an alien parasite that infests new sterile dry rock reef tanks and exerts mind control over hapless reefers who put their hands in the tank.

The hero of the story is a washed up old reefer on the fringes of the hobby and society who simply dumps a bucket of natural sea water into his tank and quickly annihilates the alien scourge. Although powerful, the alien parasite was sadly susceptible to the oceans natural bacteria.

Wait, hang on, that plot line may have already been done.

 

[Paul B]

What about an alien parasite that infests new sterile dry rock reef tanks and exerts mind control over hapless reefers who put their hands in the tank.

Funny you mention that. I had an idea to write a story from the perspective of a parasite. The plot didn't get to far in my head because parasites aren't that exciting, expressive or intelligent. They don't curse, drink, smoke or date. I am not even sure if there are girl and guy parasites. But I am working on it.

 

[KrisReef]

Funny you mention that. I had an idea to write a story from the perspective of a parasite. The plot didn't get to far in my head because parasites aren't that exciting, expressive or intelligent. They don't curse, drink, smoke or date. I am not even sure if there are girl and guy parasites. But I am working on it.

Out here in California our governor is supposedly considering providing unemployment benefits to workers who are unemployed while picketing for higher wages and benefits.

Modern folks keep telling us that our gender and pronouns are fluid and likely just vestiges from our cave lifestyles of the previous generation.

So perhaps -?
You can write a science fiction book about unemployed parasites picketing for higher unemployment benefits because working doesn’t make them feel accepted in society.

Maybe they can be threatened by a catastrophic hurricane like the one that they named Hilary who is scheduled to dump “a year’s worth of rain” this weekend.

The forecast for the end, and

What ever you write I would be happy to have you dedicate your book to me, I know that is a big decision but I would accept that responsibility if you must?

Real world my daughter just called to say she is in town and we’re going to have lunch together. Get well Paul B. I do hope you write another book. The world is shy for great wit and humor and literature nowadays.