moulton1853
Active Member
I would not dose anymore. Test your water to see what your levels are at and proceed with lighting and clean up crew. If there isn’t anything for them to eat throw in some algae pellets or nori to keep things moving forward
How Often to Add Ammonia
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DocRose
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That's...not how it works. If you tell someone they're wrong, and you know why, it's your job to supply the proof. You don't tell them to go find out why they're wrong. All good though. This isn't my first system. Nor my second... I encourage you to do more research and understand science better. It will benefit you overall in life.
That's not the plan. A few posts ago lays out the plan for this tank.
I don't need anyone to turn their computer on and comment. You literally just supported what I've been saying. The "rock" you speak of will have some form of decaying matter on it. That matter (thanks to the heater) will break down into ammonia, and trigger the growth of the bacteria. YOU CAN NOT JUST PUT SALTWATER IN A TANK AND HAVE A CYCLE...YOU HAVE TO ADD SOMETHING.
Lavey29
10K Club member
You are correct. It’s possible to cycle a tank without adding anything – no ammonia, no bacteria, nothing. The reason is that the death of the bacteria living on the walls of the glass will generate enough ammonia to start things up. But, there’s not a lot being generated, so this method ends up taking the longest time for the cycle to complete.
Once a tank is cycled, I would not add more ammonia. However some organic input might be advisable. This provides not only a little ammonia to spur continues activity of the bacteria but also the organic carbon the process needs. This process in called 'Ghost Feeding" in the hobby. A little.. and I mean very little... flake food works for this purpose.
Lavey29
10K Club member
But , if you give a man a fish you feed him for a day. If you teach him how to fish you feed him for a lifetime.
When someone tells you something that differs from your opinion, no, it isn't their job to go and show you supporting information. And I'll provide you an example of that right now. As with the others, I also know for a fact that a cycle will start on it's own. I've done it before, so therefore it is a truth for me. Maybe you don't believe it or it isn't your own truth, but I'm just telling you that it's a fact. But I'm not digging up evidence for you. It's not crucial for me to make you believe it because that's up to you.
In your threads you tend to tell people what to post. I understand it's frustrating when a thread gets off topic, but people are allowed to talk about what they want. And in fairness, you're in the middle of the discussion that is off topic.
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DocRose
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I'm not going to reply to the first part. I've spoken enough on that, and it's moot at this point. Yes, I do ask people to stay on topic in my threads (that's not the same as "telling them what to post"). One of the largest problems with this hobby (as is with most, I'm sure), is that everyone thinks they're an expert, and feels the need to shove their opinions down everyone else's throats. If I wanted someone's opinion on what it means to cycle a tank, I'd ask for it. However, since I don't need their opinion, I didn't ask for it. So they can keep it to themselves.
You have my apologies if it seems as if I'm snapping at you...I'm not. As you said, it's frustrating. This is a very complex hobby, and it pains me (as I'm sure it does others), that there's not a single place online we can go to just talk, without having to deal with the egotistical individuals that feel they need to regurgitate their views over and over, when they were never asked for in the first place.
As far as "...people are allowed to talk about what they want." ...this isn't social media. The difference between social media and a forum, is that (in a forum) threads are created with specific topics in mind. People that wish to participate in them, are expected to stay on topic. That's simple forum etiquette. It's the moderator's and administrator's job to deal with people that constantly derail threads. And no...I wasn't in the middle of the discussion. The person in the middle would be the one that derailed it in the first place. I was simply the one calling to end it.
Randy Holmes-Farley
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Just to clarify a technical detail, the bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrate are nitrifying bacteria, not denitrifying bacteria. denitrifying bacteria convert nitrate to N2, and may play little to no role in cycling a reef aquarium.
When I opened this thread and started reading through it, I saw this comment and thought to myself, ooop, that's definitely going to derail this thread:
But to your point of being on topic, I'll do that now. If you've followed Dr Tim's cycling method to the T, then I don't think you need to continue to add ammonia. And at the same time, if you DO continue to add it, I think that would be fine as well, in small amounts.
And it did. And the ensuing discussion did indeed have you in the middle of it.That's not true...The denitrifying bacteria won't just appear out of nowhere.
But to your point of being on topic, I'll do that now. If you've followed Dr Tim's cycling method to the T, then I don't think you need to continue to add ammonia. And at the same time, if you DO continue to add it, I think that would be fine as well, in small amounts.
There's a fundamental conflict here, I've seen clear examples of unassisted cycles on this site before. They take a long time, 4 mos on the latest one I've seen
Dr Reefs bottle bac thread has one starting on page 98
Any freshwater tank I've ever owned with plastic decor was an unassisted cycle, those take thirty days in freshwater. Unassisted means no bottle bac no feed, this is how the 80s went down young people nowadays assume we've always needed bottled bacteria, they only speed up wait times they're not required for closing out a cycle. We add water and room contaminations + time waited equalizes the cycle options
If we don't agree that unassisted cycling works and was here long before bottle bac then we aren't likely to agree that cycles cannot be starved once set in
You only need to add feed once to a cycle, because they can't starve, because even if you didn't feed and just waited the cycle would still complete (feed still gets in, the wait time allows for trace feed inputs to accumulate)
Dr Reefs bottle bac thread has one starting on page 98
Any freshwater tank I've ever owned with plastic decor was an unassisted cycle, those take thirty days in freshwater. Unassisted means no bottle bac no feed, this is how the 80s went down young people nowadays assume we've always needed bottled bacteria, they only speed up wait times they're not required for closing out a cycle. We add water and room contaminations + time waited equalizes the cycle options
If we don't agree that unassisted cycling works and was here long before bottle bac then we aren't likely to agree that cycles cannot be starved once set in
You only need to add feed once to a cycle, because they can't starve, because even if you didn't feed and just waited the cycle would still complete (feed still gets in, the wait time allows for trace feed inputs to accumulate)
Spare time
10K Club member
I'm also under the camp of it doesn't magically appear. I have a feeling these bacteria are able to transfer via aerosols from other tanks someone has or some other source. It's simply not possible for marine nitrifying bacteria to appear in a container of water in the middle of Kansas lol. Freshwater bacteria is another discussion.
Spare time
that’s a reasonable inference
I was able to ask Dr. Tim that very set of questions also in Dr. Reefs bottle bac thread, it’s got pages / years of discussion in bulk but the snippets are there which cover important aspects of cycling truth in my opinion
**alternation of generations is where it’s at
our prep water isn’t boiled it’s already contaminated with ammonia oxidizers which aren’t evolved for marine niches but also aren’t readily killed by them either
so we add a frag, then the bacteria you’re hinting at emerge and will beat out the rest
even the bottle bac we add aquabiomics dna testing shows not to be the resident strains at year two, alternation of generations occurs.
takeaway rule: the initial bacterial communities that reduce ammonia in early systems aren't necessarily the ending types. nobody cares as long as the ammonia stays non toxic from bioload addition date 1 to end of tank/disassembly
the whole time, like a shock absorber, different communities of bacteria are evolving to handle the load needs its never just nitrifiers. I've only known this detail about 2 years or so and in all fairness, MN Fish was the one who first pointed this out to me. fair play.
that’s a reasonable inference
I was able to ask Dr. Tim that very set of questions also in Dr. Reefs bottle bac thread, it’s got pages / years of discussion in bulk but the snippets are there which cover important aspects of cycling truth in my opinion
**alternation of generations is where it’s at
our prep water isn’t boiled it’s already contaminated with ammonia oxidizers which aren’t evolved for marine niches but also aren’t readily killed by them either
so we add a frag, then the bacteria you’re hinting at emerge and will beat out the rest
even the bottle bac we add aquabiomics dna testing shows not to be the resident strains at year two, alternation of generations occurs.
takeaway rule: the initial bacterial communities that reduce ammonia in early systems aren't necessarily the ending types. nobody cares as long as the ammonia stays non toxic from bioload addition date 1 to end of tank/disassembly
the whole time, like a shock absorber, different communities of bacteria are evolving to handle the load needs its never just nitrifiers. I've only known this detail about 2 years or so and in all fairness, MN Fish was the one who first pointed this out to me. fair play.
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Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact
Call me old school, back in the day we placed a deli shrimp in a tank to kick start the cycle. When tank reached 1.5-2 ppm ammonia we pulled it out and waited sometimes weeks to months for bacteria to colonize and drop ammonia and nitrites down to 0 to make tank safe for livestock. With recent...
www.reef2reef.com
Thats dr reefs thread. I’ve made mistakes in using that for proof before, we can see starting page 98 onward.
folks who love, love to debate will destroy the thread with arguments but not actual work, we risk that again. The proof gets diluted with every new generation of disbelieving eyes who type out cancellations of proof without any experiments linked to the counter. The best example of a marine unassisted cycle I’ve seen is on page 98 onward.
so the context is this: thats not the first thread MN has absolutely destroyed before, see his tangles with Taricha and Dan to concerning degrees. Dan and Taricha are the top two chemists on the site after Randy, to slay those guys’ chemistry and bacteria posts for fifteen pages of fighting takes guts, but that also doesn’t make counter claims true. Bulk fighting does not sub for truth, keep that in mind when reading final pages of Dr. reefs hard work that got trolled big time.
There are other ways to measure this phenomena of not possible to starve: ive been pattern watching seneye owners who remove fish for three months of retro fallow
and then add them back all at once, nothing bad happens the ammonia rate continues
like a shock absorber, not a starving system of concern and fear
fallow systems on digital ammonia meters did not get the equivalent of a full fish bioload added back daily for three months, so why didn’t the filter bac starve and down regulate in numbers to match the lesser bioload, and then be insufficient once the big bioload was added back?
because cycling rules circulated online aren’t very much true at all. it takes hidden snippets of gems, jewels to find truth and MSteven shows us one
he was able to use api to convince me a cycle was complete Lol that’s a rare find, heck of a thread. I’d nearly pay MN some PayPal bounty if he would go edit all that fighting out so we can focus on what MSteven did
For discussion's sake...
Autotrophic bacteria responsible for nitrification and denitrification in fresh and marine environments and are "Ubiquitous". It means they exist everywhere. They don't need to be artificially added even in the middle of Kansas. Hello from Wichita by the way!
Adding "bacteria in a bottle" and the ammonia it needs to propagate is simply speeds the process. Personally, it is unclear if the bottled bacteria actually speeds the cycle. I think the value, where it comes to speeding the cycle, is the addition of ammonia. This supplies what is needed for bacterial propagation immediately rather than waiting for it to be supplied more slowly by biological processes.
Lavey29
10K Club member
lol....learn to fish you will a much happier individual.
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DocRose
Active Member
I have having to block/ignore people online; but sometimes it just has to be done. R.I.P. you two.
Thanks @brandon429 for the unbiased, scientifically proven, and resource cited information.
Thanks @brandon429 for the unbiased, scientifically proven, and resource cited information.
Spare time
10K Club member
For discussion's sake...
Autotrophic bacteria responsible for nitrification and denitrification in fresh and marine environments and are "Ubiquitous". It means they exist everywhere. They don't need to be artificially added even in the middle of Kansas. Hello from Wichita by the way!
Adding "bacteria in a bottle" and the ammonia it needs to propagate is simply speeds the process. Personally, it is unclear if the bottled bacteria actually speeds the cycle. I think the value, where it comes to speeding the cycle, is the addition of ammonia. This supplies what is needed for bacterial propagation immediately rather than waiting for it to be supplied more slowly by biological processes.
From my understanding, these species that are able to "cycle" a tank are not felixble enough for live in both marine and fresh environments. I do agree that freshwater systems can obtain this bacteria very easily, but marine nitrifyers should not be found in the environment inland. I can see this being very possible in coastal areas if they do infact have the ability to travel via aerosols or via other air travel, but the course these bacteria would need to take to get to a marine aquarium seems rather troublesome even in these cases. It also wouldn't make sense for any of these bacteria far from the coast to have the ability to tolerate high salinity given that they have not evolved in an environment that would select for that trait. Again, I am basing this off of how reasonable it would seem for these marine bacteria to make it to a tank. If there is some paper that anyone could link here, I'd be very happy to read it.
Ps if anyone wants to move this conversation to its own thread, I'd be happy to continue there
Since the op wants to not drift this too far off topic I figured if mention that
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