How to best emulate this beautiful tidepool lighting in an aquarium? Can it be done?

[jda]

I skipped over from the first post to here. The best lagoon that I ever saw was a pair of 1000w 6500k MH on a light mover. They also did a really good job of having solid corals in there that look awesome under this light - pink and purple poci and stylo, yellow porites and deep blues look good too. You have to keep the sand white, so some gobies can really help. Once the coralline gets going, it should look really good.

 

[X-37B]

Well.. if you look careful you will see that 15% of the branches have an added 1 degree tilt off axis that you wouldn't find under halides.

Further the one aqua looking coral should be turquoise (though when collected in the ocean it was mud brown
so its real color is defined by a halide used to frag/market it).

And 10% of the sticks have skeletons that are 1 mil thinner than under halides.

Last the tank should be periodically drained and blasted with 800 microwatts/cm2 of UV-B (measured daylight).... just to let it know its alive.

Sorry, sarcasm of course.

WOW! I just noticed. Good eye, lol.
All kidding aside I feel bad for the OP.
Best advice for the OP, if they are still reading the thread, is to locate some tanks in your area running different lights.
Viewing them in person will give you a better idea of what looks best to you.
Build threads are the next best option.
I remember when I was running halides I went to the lfs, all gen 4 radions. Their tanks were very blue. They new I ran halides and always tried to give me all the negative points of them. They stopped when I showed them my systsm. All the lights available work well, imo.
Anyway talking with the owner I asked if you can make them whiter.
He pulled out his phone and wow!
Tank looked very halide like to my eyes at 14K.
This is when a customer said Radions will only grow corals the right way. He told me 16hds were junk and cant grow coral.
I was a halide guy forever and just did not like leds at that point.
So I setup a 18" cube running 2 16hds.
8 or so months later I showed the person a pic and he could not believe it.
I converted my other halide tanks to led and have not looked back.
A couple people on this site got some nice halide equipment.

So to the OP. Start a build thread and get a badge so we can all follow.
We are interested in what you decide on and definatly want pics.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I skipped over from the first post to here. The best lagoon that I ever saw was a pair of 1000w 6500k MH on a light mover. They also did a really good job of having solid corals in there that look awesome under this light - pink and purple poci and stylo, yellow porites and deep blues look good too. You have to keep the sand white, so some gobies can really help. Once the coralline gets going, it should look really good.

Almost forgot about light movers. That would be a wonderful setup.

 

[BeanAnimal]

WOW! I just noticed. Good eye, lol.
All kidding aside I feel bad for the OP.
Best advice for the OP, if they are still reading the thread, is to locate some tanks in your area running different lights.
Viewing them in person will give you a better idea of what looks best to you.
Build threads are the next best option.
I remember when I was running halides I went to the lfs, all gen 4 radions. Their tanks were very blue. They new I ran halides and always tried to give me all the negative points of them. They stopped when I showed them my systsm. All the lights available work well, imo.
Anyway talking with the owner I asked if you can make them whiter.
He pulled out his phone and wow!
Tank looked very halide like to my eyes at 14K.
This is when a customer said Radions will only grow corals the right way. He told me 16hds were junk and cant grow coral.
I was a halide guy forever and just did not like leds at that point.
So I setup a 18" cube running 2 16hds.
8 or so months later I showed the person a pic and he could not believe it.
I converted my other halide tanks to led and have not looked back.
A couple people on this site got some nice halide equipment.

So to the OP. Start a build thread and get a badge so we can all follow.
We are interested in what you decide on and definatly want pics.

I had 2 ReefOptix III with 150w DE phoenix bulbs and mag ballast. I loved the look and the coral health. I like the LEDs less but enjoy the benefit of ramping, moon, less concentrated heat.

 

[jda]

Almost forgot about light movers. That would be a wonderful setup.

Part of what makes lagoons look right is high intensity. You can see it in the captive lagoons that actually look like the wild. To get that look, you need lots of wattage. I am sure that you know this, but many who probably argued in 7 pages never tried this so they really do not get it (I am assuming since I read about 4 posts and moved on) and assume that doing a lagoon like their reefs at a difference color temperature will be the same thing.

It is a lot to ask to have 4 or 6 1000w halides, 25 Radion xr30s, 48 T5s, etc. over a lagoon like this, which is where light movers come in. Initial and ongoing costs can be much lower.

 

[buruskeee]

You are not providing actual data

His posts of longwinded walls of writing about nothing is very similar to how flat-earthers defend their position. I wouldn't be surprised if he was one as well by how he's responded and refuse to let others suggest anything but MH with no valid data based reasoning.

 

[buruskeee]

on a light mover

Interesting - never thought about that. I wonder how that would fair over time with the salt creep that will blanket the tracks and seep into the motors though. Typical light movers are usually used with grow lights, correct?

 

[X-37B]

Interesting - never thought about that. I wonder how that would fair over time with the salt creep that will blanket the tracks and seep into the motors though. Typical light movers are usually used with grow lights, correct?

I ran movers on grow light halides years ago. I thought about trying it over a tank but never did. Im sure someone has in the past.

 

[jda]

Light movers are made for these conditions. They were on aquariums before anybody was growing The Chronic indoors... like more than 20 years ago.

Have a friend with a 12 foot reef and he uses 3x sets of 12x 48" T5s and also has a pair of 1000w halides moving over 6 feet each. Works great. He bought like 30 or 32 hydra 64s and went to this after enough of them died. They are really good large tank solutions with good coverage and longevity.

 

[oreo54]

Part of what makes lagoons look right is high intensity. You can see it in the captive lagoons that actually look like the wild. To get that look, you need lots of wattage. I am sure that you know this, but many who probably argued in 7 pages never tried this so they really do not get it (I am assuming since I read about 4 posts and moved on) and assume that doing a lagoon like their reefs at a difference color temperature will be the same thing.

It is a lot to ask to have 4 or 6 1000w halides, 25 Radion xr30s, 48 T5s, etc. over a lagoon like this, which is where light movers come in. Initial and ongoing costs can be much lower.

At 18" deep and even 6.5x6.5ft square not sure one needs 4000 Watts of anything really.
I freely admit that MH's certainly are the easiest to set up (almost all needs a rack or ceiling mounts)
42.25 sq ft of surface area.
475 gallons
24" sq aquarium is 4 sq ft
So effectively 10.5 24" sq aquariums at 18" deep.
10 45gal tanks.

Natural world only "needs" like 1500 surface par for a few hours in a day.
Soo use dli for now to accommodate "static" lights that don't dim.

DLI values in the tidepool are likely about double those seen in the winter (something on the order of ~22 winter DLI and ~45 summer DLI; see Hill et al., 2012 for further details).

Spectral Data from a Shallow Hawaiian Tidepool

Dana Riddle previously documented and discussed light intensity of a Hawaiian tidepool versus the home aquarium. Dana continues his light analysis by examining spectral data. What can nature teach us about coral care?

reefs.com

And just use a rough average of 30 to make life easy.
700PAR at the surface for 12 hours per day.

Soo 10 lights that can hit 700PAR at the surface over a 24" sq area.
Scale up all you want.

Seems rather easy.. LOL.
Move em or not, makes no critical difference for par but for geometry, of course.

Are you talking about moving them flat or an arc?
Hmm after thinking bit doesn't really matter much I guess.

As much as it FITS the real world movers just seem so over complicating things.
10 Orphek Amazonas (even starting at the "little ones") with narrow optics and high placement should do just fine.
Looking over their canned spectrums I'd probably ask for some custom tweaks.
Though on the lower ones with no channel control that could be a bit tricky.

 

[jda]

I am just reporting what I have seen and experienced. I have not done the figures or hypotheticals - don't care to. If you want a tank to look like a lagoon, then you need to blast it with light.. otherwise you end up with normal looking tank with whiter lighting.

I know that I have posted about this, but my Apogee 510 found at least twice that amount of PAR in Oahu at 3 feet of depth (as long as the cord on my meter). 2 different trips. I have posted about this plenty of times, but there is something wrong with Dana's results on that whole deal. I am not the only one. I would at least disclaim when you use that graph and do not depend on it much.

 

[oreo54]

I am just reporting what I have seen and experienced. I have not done the figures or hypotheticals - don't care to. If you want a tank to look like a lagoon, then you need to blast it with light.. otherwise you end up with normal looking tank with whiter lighting.

I know that I have posted about this, but my Apogee 510 found at least twice that amount of PAR in Oahu at 3 feet of depth (as long as the cord on my meter). 2 different trips. I have posted about this plenty of times, but there is something wrong with Dana's results on that whole deal. I am not the only one. I would at least disclaim when you use that graph and do not depend on it much.

Surface PPFD is approx 2100roughly. That number is hard to refute.
That number has a temporal component. It decreases as the sun processes.
(Angle of incident goes from 90 to 180.)
Also has a seasonal component and lat/long

This appears to be in DLI. Surface showing 40-50. Remember it smooths the peaks.
Point is it somewhat matches w/ Dana.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Rainfall-surface-light-PPFD-and-underwater-PPFD-over-4yr-in-St-John-US-Virgin_fig1_326559129

Fine bump it to 1000par at the surface..

You know I'm not saying you are wrong. Just doing the calcs a different way.

Daily Light Integral (DLI) Calculator | Waveform Lighting

With a PPFD input value and total hours of use per day, Daily Light Integral (DLI) values can be calculated using our online calculator.

www.waveformlighting.com

1000 par /12hr..43.2

Effects of variable daily light integrals and elevated CO2 on the adult and juvenile performance of two Acropora corals​

• January 2022
• Marine Biology 169(1)

DOI:10.1007/s00227-021-03992-y

Benthic irradiance levels depend on the intensity of
light reaching the sea surface, attenuation in the water col-
umn, and water depth. Light intensity at the sea surface var-
ies spatially and temporally (e.g., with latitude, season, time
of day, cloud cover and waves), while light attenuation in
the water column varies with depth, and with the concentra-
tion and type of suspended particulate matter and coloured
dissolved organic matter (Storlazzi etal. 2015). In shallow,
clear-water environments, benthic organisms are regularly
exposed to high levels of irradiance, but daily light integrals
(DLI: cumulative amount of light received per day) can vary
five-fold from 1day to the next due to clouds or turbidity
from sediment resuspension (Anthony etal.

Oh.. see #10

Daily Light Integral, PAR, and Photosaturation Discussion

I'd like to start a discussion based on a few things I've been reading lately regarding optimum daily light integral, PAR and photosaturation in our reef tanks and with the advent of this new lighting forum. For those of you with PAR meters and the ability to continually monitor PAR via an...

www.reef2reef.com

I assume at 11:46 clouds moved in or a volcano erupted..
Australia.

The Optimal Light Spectrum in a Reef Aquarium

An article on the characteristics of the optimal spectrum in a reef aquarium

www.reef2reef.com

Plenty of data on what to expect on the surface.

 

[oreo54]

Just some fun with numbers.

25000 lumens/4 sq ft = 67264 lux
67264 lux = 1159 par ( high cri led)
1547 par nat sunlight.
10 x 25000 lumens = 250000
10 600w mh's each over a 24x24" area.
6000W
52.7 dli and exceeds real world average dli
of 20-40

Of course there isn't a 600w mh or is there?
Using 400w in order to use 10.
43055 lux 780 par 33.7dli


Now the "arguable" part .
3200w of led
10 Orphek Amazonia 960's.
30 degree lenses 1 meter (3.3 ft) off the water line.
.6 meter (2 ft dua) spread
38917 lux = 670 par
29 dli 12 hr.


4000w of mh (4 x 1000, 40000 lux each) are def in line with producing it but still on the low side
Well almost 744 par if over like a 36 x 36-ish area.
32.14 dli
Catch is in " real life" that intensity is not 100% for 12 hours.

Soo some food for thought.
Think shooting for 30 dli at the water surface would be adequate.
That's 700 par at the surface over 12 hours.
Or 40000 lux/4 ft
15000 lumens / light x 10

The output you want needs to be like one of the first calculations in order to pick a light
Dictates units, number of units, spacing, cost, mounting ect.

If one actually used like sunlight par at max (2300 par) over 12 hours your dli would be 99.4


Above numbers are so big that determining par at 18" deep is somewhat pointless.
670-1500 par at the surface.
Admittedly the par for the Orpheks is lowest.
May only have middle 100's at the floor.

Just for the mh lumen #'s

Feel free to check numbers ect.

 

[A. grandis]

Precise PAR measurements, including on water surface in Hawaii, will depend on the seasons and other natural phenomena like for example what we call here vog, which is basically a mix of particles and gases from volcanic activity around the islands. It will affect most islands depending on the direction and speed of wind. Another thing to keep in mind is the presence of clouds in those daily measurements (DLI) done by any expensive PAR meter, like the ones Dana used recording throughout the day for his articles.
The DLI is between ~22 and ~45, varying from January to December, like some of Dana's the articles state. The average of ~30 is a good guess.
Another consideration when taking those PAR measurements in nature is the time of the day it was taken. It is important to understand that other influences like ripples on the water surface and possibly some suspended particles will also interfere in any under water reading.
As we know, PAR is just one of the ways to measure light intensity and a common reference in this hobby, helping the communication a bit, but it should be taken as a superficial measurement for comparison using the same device (sensor and monitor). Light reflection, those surface ripples, glitter lines, the angle of the sensor, type of sensor... they all contribute to that little, or huge difference between sensors and monitors.
In regards to the spectrum for that OP system... best is to use 10K halide lamps instead of 65K lamps for a closed home reef system to represent natural tide pool with corals in terms of aesthetics and maintenance. The 65K would be better and look better only for biological/physical aspects in a system where algae would be predominant. For the corals, the 10K, which is normally referred as "reef crest" light, will help in the maintenance of the system for the long run. A 10K lamp will give a little less emphasis to algae and will boost coralline algae, which is very important to maintain a shallow water system free of undesirable algae. The use of Tangs, sea urchins and snails is primordial... yes, it needs to be part of the plan since the beginning. The use of T5s will act as the sky light we have in nature to enrich/boost that blue aspect even more. Other important tings to notice is the selection of corals for such system and the presence of sand and some sea cucumbers to help with that.

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

This is what the big professional aquariums use, Ecoxotic Cannon Lighting. Not sure of a retail source or if you could get one with low enough Wattage for you application.

 

[twentyleagues]

This is what the big professional aquariums use, Ecoxotic Cannon Lighting. Not sure of a retail source or if you could get one with low enough Wattage for you application.

these?

Commercial Cannon PRO 120w LED Light RGB + 8,000K White w/Wireless Control (6870) - Ecoxotic

Shop The Best Saltwater Aquarium Equipment & Supplies at Saltwater Aquarium. We Carry Everything you will Need for your Fish Tank.

www.saltwateraquarium.com

I'd like to see them personally. They have a few "color" choices also.
I dont know if these have been mentioned yet. I have seen these in person its very nice compared to the other orphek lights I've seen.

Amazonas 960 iCon Aquarium LED Lighting • Orphek

Orphek Amazonas 960 iCon reef Aquarium LED Lighting, 10,000% dimming control system - never offered in the market before!

orphek.com

 

[jda]

The cannons that most public aquaria use are much more powerful and did not work like they wanted. While once billed as a replacement for other lights, they are best for accent lighting and maybe some pop. I think that they were like 350w and most corals did not like them.

I cannot think of a single place that is going to keep them when they change their installs. Changing a display or install is very expensive and do not happen often although most did pivot with these lights and add back what they removed. If they choose poorly, they have to live with their choices for a long time.

 

[Seancj]

This is what the big professional aquariums use, Ecoxotic Cannon Lighting. Not sure of a retail source or if you could get one with low enough Wattage for you application.

Thank you for this suggestion! I am researching them now! They are fairly reasonably priced. I could comfortably afford a couple 10K and a couple 20K versions as well. I'm going to visit Mr. Anderson's big concrete tank thread later today. I believe he is using these.

 

[Seancj]

Mr. Anderson says he is getting great growth and coloration of his corals from his Ecoxotic Cannons! They are penentrating several feet down in his big concrete tank. Based on his report, they would likely work well for my application as well. I think 5 10K white cannons and maybe 3 or 4 20K blue cannons would cover pretty well.
Other fixtures are still being considered however.

 

[buruskeee]

Mr. Anderson says he is getting great growth and coloration of his corals from his Ecoxotic Cannons! They are penentrating several feet down in his big concrete tank. Based on his report, they would likely work well for my application as well. I think 5 10K white cannons and maybe 3 or 4 20K blue cannons would cover pretty well.
Other fixtures are still being considered however.

You’ll probably have to do a very slow and long ramp up to reach the intensity you’re looking for since your application will be very shallow.

Bright side is if you’re using 10k or even lower spectrum, it’s not very heavy with blue so corals won’t necessarily bleach as it’s the high PAR in blues that excite the corals too excessively (happens no matter the tech if the majority of the PAR is heavily blue, as this is what corals use most efficiently and higher spectrum is mostly “wasted” so to speak.