How to best emulate this beautiful tidepool lighting in an aquarium? Can it be done?

[CBonito]

For my next tank upgrade (shallow tide pool scheme), I want to come as close as possible to the natural lighting as seen in this video.
Of course, metal halides are the first to come to mind. Go with 6500K or 10,000K? 250/400/1000 watt bulbs? How many reflectors to cover 78" x 78" foot print?
Kessil lights also come to mind and with enough fixtures tuned full spectrum, maybe they could come close.

The 6500k Iwasaki in 250 watt would very closely replicate this. I think I still have one downstairs.

Kessils turned to full spectrum are highly annoying with too much red. I have them now and run them blue. You can't get the white quality with a kessil that you get with an Iwasaki metal halide. No chance.

I could sit there and watch that video all day for some reason.

 

[Seancj]

I prefer this look too.

My next tank I'm going to try Orphek Amazonas 960 to achieve similar and for the shimmer.

I've been considering the Amazonas 960's for a long time now. I've spoken with Orphek quite extensively about them over this past year. Agreed that they could put out the color spectrums I would like, as they are customizable. I could ask for a 6500K to 20,000K spectrum range. Plus the shimmer! Fully programmable. They would be my first choice if I decide on LED's.
I'm also considering the Kessil W500N, which is a public aquarium fixture. They are the 500X on steroids! I could mount them quite high and still get great PAR. They look nice too, come in white, with an industrial form factor and can be mounted to a powered track rack system. They are a 10,000K to 20,000K spectrum range. Fully programmable.
I would prefer to go with metal halides, but the problem is finding an aesthetically pleasing way to hang them over this wide open top tank. It will be out in the middle of a large living space. WAF is a very strong factor here. It took a lot of persuasion just to get this tank considered. Ugly light fixtures could be a deal killer.
The best looking halide fixture out there is the Giesemann Spectra. But, to me, they are outdated looking. I had two of their 48" fixtures hanging over my old 240 cube back in the mid 2000's and not sure I want that look again.
If there were an attractive way to hang halide/T5/LED bar combo over this tank, I would definitely lean that way.

 

[jonnywink]

Basically what you need.. Doesn't matter on the source..
6500k high CRI lights.
Going w/ say LEDS and you won't have that small UV component from MH's but you also wouldn't have much with a sonotube either. Plastic filters out a lot of UV.

Dansyr actually has the right idea.. There are some very good LEDs that quite the high natural color rendering to sunlight.
In the visible range more than any other "common" light source that I can think of.

If you don't want "natural" per se than you can always use the RGB trick to emulate a white type light with a more extreme color rendering and you can "lean" it into the cool white area.

I’m still trying to learn. What is the RGB trick

 

[oreo54]

I’m still trying to learn. What is the RGB trick

Using RedGreenBlue Leds in place of white.
There is a big difference in the perception of color using that over the blue plus yellow/ green phosphor approach.

LED Blue (470nm) x3.4
LED Green (530nm) x3
LED Red (620nm) x2
Luminous flux: 660 lm
Radiant flux: 2,322 mW
PPF: 10.4 umol/s
TCP: 6900 K
CRI: 89
λp: 623 nm
Color: #F1EAFF

It's how t5's do it..
Blue, green, orange

 

[X-37B]

Using RedGreenBlue Leds in place of white.
There is a big difference in the perception of color using that over the blue plus yellow/ green phosphor approach.

I used a RGB led on a freshwater setup. Very crisp bright white light.

 

[oreo54]

I used a RGB led on a freshwater setup. Very crisp bright white light.

Yea just add cyan/royal blue for sky blue or lagoon turquoise look

MIXING LIST
----------------------------------------
LED RoyalBlue (450nm) x0.3
LED Blue (470nm) x3.4
LED Cyan (500nm) x1
LED Green (530nm) x3
LED Red (620nm) x2
----------------------------------------

* SIMULATION DATA
----------------------------------------
Luminous flux: 745 lm
Radiant flux: 2,727 mW
PPF: 12 umol/s
TCP: 9010 K
CRI: 82
λp: 468 nm
Color: #B0DDFF

 

[A. grandis]

I'd be under the one without the annoying UV or baking IR...




100% b....All 3 are equal with proper design. Each has it's uniqueness though

Exposed corals dripping with life saving slime and really brown to boot is not a selling point.
During that period they may survive but thrive ....not so much.

Like I say... Nature's trying to kill you

Natural Threats to Coral Reefs: Corals Tutorial

Coral reefs face numerous threats. Weather-related damage to reefs occurs frequently. Large and powerful waves from hurricanes and cyclones can break apart or flatten large coral heads, scattering their fragments (Barnes & Hughes, 1999; Jones & Endean, 1976). A single storm seldom kills off...

oceanservice.noaa.gov

You do realize those animals are built/designed to grow under those conditions, right? You should also know that the studies and papers showing the properties and qualities of UV in the wild are very different than the controlled/ minute amount metal halides offer in any reef tank, right?
I mean... how many times I have to mention that working under 400W and 1000W metal halide lamps won't do any damage in the long run? They actually help the colonies distributing that rain of photons, just like in nature. What about working under a partial natural tropical sunlight AND those 400w, and 1000W in addition to that, all together? Well, that's what we always had for decades here. Do you want me to mention what I see in nature and what corals are healthier?
This is the difference between searching for couple papers to post here to prove a point and the experience under such conditions, my friend.

 

[A. grandis]

Yea just add cyan/royal blue for sky blue or lagoon turquoise look

Would you be able to use your tools to show how different RGB X BYGP X halide spectrum are and the effects they will project on a reef tank? What would be the reactions of each different technology in photosynthesis?
Is adding the cyan/royal blue "fix" anything for biology?
So what are the advantages of the natural sunlight and metal halide in this comparison?

 

[A. grandis]

How much UV and IR can be bad for your corals under a halide lamp????
What about 103°F on the coral under 10K Ushios with corals exposed out of the water for 30 minutes every day and the coral was so healthy that you would just die just to see how amazing that growth and tissue is!!! Oh! Try to do that with any LED and you will DAMAGE the corals!!!!!! The coral wouldn't grow like that in the first place under LEDs! Well...
What about Julian's system under halides using that Sfiligoi? Oh boy!!!!LOL!
Anyways...


Acropora valida under 10K Ushios in Mark Silverman's tank:

Julian's tank under halides:

 

[oreo54]

Would you be able to use your tools to show how different RGB X BYGP X halide spectrum are and the effects they will project on a reef tank? What would be the reactions of each different technology in photosynthesis?
Is adding the cyan/royal blue "fix" anything for biology?
So what are the advantages of the natural sunlight and metal halide in this comparison?

Well to start peridinin outnumbers chl a 4:1 (ratio changes depending on species of zoox) and captures photons well into the green range. The transfer from peridinin to chl a is almost 100%.
One can almost assume it is peridinin that is the primary photon gathering pigment.
Not chl a in the blue green depths.

Peridinin-chlorophyll-protein complex - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Unique Photophysical Properties of the Peridinin-Chlorophyll-a-Protein

Peridinin-Chlorophyll-a-Proteins (PCPs) are water-soluble light harvesting complexes from dinoflagellates. They have unique light-harvesting and energy transfer properties which have been studied in details in the last 15 years. This review aims to give ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

That peridinin absorption band also is hit hard by the green mercury spike.

There are really no "advantages" to MH and sunlight that have been proven in any technical study.
There are no magic or hidden nm's AFAICT.

The orig. question was regarding "looks" anyways.


Your question is more confrontational than intellectual.

 

[oreo54]

You do realize those animals are built/designed to grow under those conditions, right? nce under such conditions, my friend.

No at that point in time thay are NOT growing.
Just because they can survive is great but don't pretend survival is thriving.

 

[oreo54]

How much UV and IR can be bad for your corals under a halide lamp????
What about 103°F on the coral under 10K Ushios with corals exposed out of the water for 30 minutes every day and the coral was so healthy that you would just die just to see how amazing that growth and tissue is!!! Oh! Try to do that with any LED and you will DAMAGE the corals!!!!!! The coral wouldn't grow like that in the first place under LEDs! Well...
What about Julian's system under halides using that Sfiligoi? Oh boy!!!!LOL!
Anyways...

Maybe some proof more than whatabboutisms..
Like what about Therman, what about.. ect. ect. ect.

How much UV and IR can be bad for your corals under a halide lamp????

Really the point is the necessity or not. Not how much is bad.
There is no definitive proof its necessary. And MH's differ in output anyways.

And t5's have practically zero of both as well Should we bash them as well?
Why do you ignore THAT elephant in the room?
T5's not "MH full spectrum".. garbage /s

Here just filter out both IR and UV on a halide and compare it to an identical setup with the IR/UV included.. and get back to me to prove... anything.

 

[BeanAnimal]

And on queue the flood of videos come rolling in. Corals grow under a myriad of lights. This thread is about options for the OP, not to debate coral growth or health under various lights and/or if being the sun is better than being a subset of the sun for health, growth, color, etc.

Please --- ohh please stop doing this in every lighting thread. We get it, you love metal halides. Good for you! Please stop trying to forcibly proselytize everyone around you to the same position.

 

[oreo54]

Acropora valida under 10K Ushios in Mark Silverman's tank:

Julian's tank under halides:

Whats your point?
Old DIY led blue/rb/white..ONLY.. for its entire life.
Therman

I currently have 15 Reefbreeders Photon v2 fixtures running over my tanks, along with 3 DIY Cree LED fixtures I built before commercial LED fixtures were widely available (2008-2010). A few of the corals people might get from me are under the DIY fixtures but almost all Acropora are grown and healed under Reefbreeders.

I have only used Reefbreeders fixtures or DIY fixtures since about 2009, so I am no help when it comes to settings for Radions, Orpheks, Kessils, T5s, etc. etc. As a result, I really have no useful suggestions to share regarding how to set them up or how corals will respond to them. I'm sure there are plenty of other great lights out there, but Reefbreeders fit the bill for me and were an easy and economical transition to make coming from the large DIY array style fixtures I'd built myself in the past. I have to give major credit to my friend Adam at @Battlecorals for insisting I give Reefbreeders a try after he had great success with them.

therman's 12 year old SPS system...top down shot, starting to enjoy this tank again

I am not good at sharing images of my tanks. I'm terrible at keeping glass clean. I really enjoy seeing corals grow out into healthy colonies from small frags. On that note, this 36x36x18 tank was set up first in 2010, moved to a new house in 2012, and nearly crashed (due entirely to my...

www.reef2reef.com

Honestly I tried T5s once as an experiment on my system in one tank and the corals did not like it at all, lost a ton of color. I have difficulty when I get frags from friends with T5s, seems like they take a long time to acclimate between T5->LED. Not sure about the reverse. The "deficiency of spectrum" of LEDs is nonsense. The overlapping spectra and smooth spectrum of whites is just as good if not better than T5. That being said I dont know what black box emitters are like, so they may not be comparable to the Crees I have experience with in Reefbreeders and DIY fixtures.

Have you measured PAR to compare how it has changed between the two lighting systems? That could make a significant difference.

There are plenty of corals that look great under full spectrum though. Most of the pinks, reds, purples, and blues look amazing if not better under whiter light. I have never run blue heavy on my systems, many of the tanks are full spectrum for the entire photoperiod so I dont even know what they look like under blues

What are some Acro's that look great under full spectrum white lighting?

I just replaced my LED lighting with a 6 bulb T5 setup. It is a 50/50 mix of ATI Coral+ and Blue+. The light intensity and coverage is a night and day difference between the LED's and T5's. The shadowing is 90% eliminated with the T5's. I am getting light underneath colonies now. Also, the tank...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[A. grandis]

Well to start peridinin outnumbers chl a 4:1 (ratio changes depending on species of zoox) and captures photons well into the green range. The transfer from peridinin to chl a is almost 100%.
One can almost assume it is peridinin that is the primary photon gathering pigment.
Not chl a in the blue green depths.

Peridinin-chlorophyll-protein complex - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Unique Photophysical Properties of the Peridinin-Chlorophyll-a-Protein

Peridinin-Chlorophyll-a-Proteins (PCPs) are water-soluble light harvesting complexes from dinoflagellates. They have unique light-harvesting and energy transfer properties which have been studied in details in the last 15 years. This review aims to give ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

That peridinin absorption band also is hit hard by the green mercury spike.

There are really no "advantages" to MH and sunlight that have been proven in any technical study.
There are no magic or hidden nm's AFAICT.

The orig. question was regarding "looks" anyways.


Your question is more confrontational than intellectual.

There is more to that, but... thanks very much! Halides will offer the whole range of wavelengths well distributed without any need of addition or twist. And more... the UV and IR that LEDs can't.

No at that point in time thay are NOT growing.
Just because they can survive is great but don't pretend survival is thriving.

How long any of us would be willing to leave any of our corals out of the water on purpose, or would need to do that in a well planned system? Even if we would need to, in some cases, the corals would be still extremely healthy and grow like weeds in most cases! See post #109.

Maybe some proof more than whatabboutisms..
Like what about Therman, what about.. ect. ect. ect.

Really the point is the necessity or not. Not how much is bad.
Therre is no definitive proof its necessary. And MH's differ in output anyways.
And t5's have practically zero of both as well Should we bash them as well?
Why do you ignore THAT elephant in the room?
Here just filter out both IR and UV on a halide and compare it to an identical setup with the IR/UV included.. and get back to me to prove... anything.

Now you are appealing... and I thank you as always for mention the QUEEN T5. LOL!
As the LED uses are tired to know, T5s will be a great supplementation to the primary source of light. LED uses use T5s for that purpose. They work together and make the sky light effect with the point source effect from halides. The LED users used the T5s as it was used with halides. The only bad thing is that LEDs just can't substitute halides in any way! Get it?
We just can't go against the facts of results, Oreo. Can't.

It is clear that most of the time when you guys get together to try to defeat halides with arguments, they stay on paper, or better, on screen. When we get our hands wet... (I'll use what my friend Tullio said once): "metal halide is a hard animal to beat!".
I hope the newbies reading these lines understand that LEDs are ok in some cases and they have their many limits. With proper application they can try for a while, but they are NOT the OPTIMAL source of light for reefs in the long run in terms of quality of light, comparing to sunlight.

Why you guys love to hear the same teachings over and over?
Thanks for the opportunity to express my opinions here.

 

[A. grandis]

And on queue the flood of videos come rolling in. Corals grow under a myriad of lights. This thread is about options for the OP, not to debate coral growth or health under various lights and/or if being the sun is better than being a subset of the sun for health, growth, color, etc.

Please --- ohh please stop doing this in every lighting thread. We get it, you love metal halides. Good for you! Please stop trying to forcibly proselytize everyone around you to the same position.

Every lighting thread? Stop crying! You know I didn't come here for months. LOL!

You are the one who asked me to come back here and post all the goodies when you quoted me. I had my participation and got out of this thread. You called me back. Thanks very much.
I'll try again... leave me alone and I won't come back. LOL!!
I love you guys. No had feelings.
God bless us all.

 

[oreo54]

Halides will offer the whole range of wavelengths well distributed without any need of addition or twist

Well if you REALLY paid attention to what I wrote you will notice I have no love for "cheap" white leds.
The high CRI Bridgelux cobs I started the DIY part with is "full spectrum" and covers the cyan band.

I have no problem pointing out what I "believe" are deficiencies of ANY lighting.. well from my perspective.
I am trying to improve led for... you
See any shortage of cyan?

BTW.. common thing is to add either t5 or led to the MH's sooo apparently.. not so perfect eh.

The only bad thing is that LEDs just can't substitute halides in any way! Get it?
We just can't go against the facts of results, Oreo. Can't.

We have a different definition of what a fact is.

 

[BeanAnimal]

It is clear that most of the time when you guys get together to try to defeat halides with arguments

Don't you get it? Nobody here wants to defeat halides. Nobody actually wants this conversation and you keep forcing it. I didn't ask you to come back, I asked you to stop posting your rants in threads where they are misplaced.

 

[A. grandis]

Whats your point?
Old DIY led blue/rb/white..ONLY.. for its entire life.
Therman

therman's 12 year old SPS system...top down shot, starting to enjoy this tank again

I am not good at sharing images of my tanks. I'm terrible at keeping glass clean. I really enjoy seeing corals grow out into healthy colonies from small frags. On that note, this 36x36x18 tank was set up first in 2010, moved to a new house in 2012, and nearly crashed (due entirely to my...

www.reef2reef.com

What are some Acro's that look great under full spectrum white lighting?

I just replaced my LED lighting with a 6 bulb T5 setup. It is a 50/50 mix of ATI Coral+ and Blue+. The light intensity and coverage is a night and day difference between the LED's and T5's. The shadowing is 90% eliminated with the T5's. I am getting light underneath colonies now. Also, the tank...

www.reef2reef.com

Compare and shoot for what you want!
Remember... the OP is about what we find in nature, not what Therman has there!
Do you want me to post ACI corals and you can compare...
Whatever you want...
Anyone will go to the route they want...
If the OP wants LEDs, good for him...
All my replies to you were to prove that what you wrote about UV and IR don't mean anything in practice using halides. I did that so many times and you keep coming again and again with that.

 

[A. grandis]

Don't you get it? Nobody here wants to defeat halides. Nobody actually wants this conversation and you keep forcing it. I didn't ask you to come back, I asked you to stop posting your rants in threads where they are misplaced.

You are asking right now quoting my name. LOL!
Let me go...
I need to work. Have a great night you all.
LOL!