How to best emulate this beautiful tidepool lighting in an aquarium? Can it be done?

[oreo54]

C
All my replies to you were to prove that what you wrote about UV and IR don't mean anything in practice using halides. I did that so many times and you keep coming again and again with that.

Actually does.. There is no proof that even w/ JUST halides removing or adding UV/IR is that important.
you are butt-u-ming things with no real proof actually.

Further reading.

Coral skeletons serve as both internal reflectors and UV protection

On tropical reefs, life revolves around the sun. Photosynthetic corals harness the power of the sun for much of their energy requirements. But solar radiation also contains a lot of harmful UV radiation. So how do corals deal with this catch 22? Fascinating enough, their skeletons aide in...

reefs.com

 

[BeanAnimal]

Remember... the OP is about what we find in nature, not what Therman has there!

Last I checked the OP was looking for aesthetics. LEDs and Metal Halides are man made lighting sources. The sun is nature. The OP ruled out the sun. He is considering halides, as well as LED. You are a broken record, in that you are incapable of having a conversation and instead try to talk over everybody with metal halide propaganda and your "truth" compiled form your library of videos and demonstration images. Nobody asked for that. There is a place for the conversation, but this isn't it.

 

[A. grandis]

Last I checked the OP was looking for aesthetics. LEDs and Metal Halides are man made lighting sources. The sun is nature. The OP ruled out the sun. He is considering halides, as well as LED. You are a broken record, in that you incapable of having a conversation and instead try to talk over everybody with metal halide propaganda and your "truth" compiled form your library of videos and demonstration images. Nobody asked for that. There is a place for the conversation, but this isn't it.

Alright then.. rephrasing:
"Remember... the OP is about what we find in nature, not what Therman has there INCLUDING IN TERMS OF AESTHETICS!"
How about now?

Well, are any of the videos and explanations I posted lies? How do you want me to discuss the practical results? It's all about the results the energy offered to the whole system.
Personal preferences include aesthetics, electricity bill and heat as excuses for LED users... Personal preferences also can be faster growth, more pigment formation (more real coloration than unde LEDs, yes, as Mike didn't believe me at first with his Radions, but now he sees under halides!), vivid thick coral tissue, etc...

What Oreo posts defends what he believes is the truth about LEDs on paper.
What I post defends the truth of halides in practice.
Did you notice I almost never post the bad results I see with LEDs in the long run like dying spots, distorted colonies (which is just very common and disgusting IMO), coloration by reflection, weak colonies,... all negative aspects caused by faulty energy source in many cases.

Did I post anything that is not true?
I really have to get back to work.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Did I post anything that is not true?
I really have to get back to work.

That is the issue... Nobody wants to have the argument with you about what is true and what is opinion. It is not the thread for it, but you insist on having the conversation.

Also most of us have been down this path with you and it always takes the same shape. I think we are all just tired of the same arguments, especially when none of us asked to have it in the first place.

 

[A. grandis]

That is the issue... Nobody wants to have the argument with you about what is true and what is opinion. It is not the thread for it, but you insist on having the conversation.

Also most of us have been down this path with you and it always takes the same shape. I think we are all just tired of the same arguments, especially when none of us asked to have it in the first place.

You quoted me and I came to answer again. LOL!
Oreo and others love to have conversations with me.
We all learn from and push each other so much in this forum.
Sorry, but you are wrong saying that.
Not everyone agrees like you in that aspect, you know.
There are so many people that are enjoying the great benefits of metal halides after thy tried and confirmed the results because of discussions like this.
If you reply my good night I will like your post.

 

[oreo54]

Back to the orig. problem:

As Tullio says.. look at the spectrum..normalized to each other.
Now granted the Bridgelux is just a COB and not a light. Point is by getting the most adjustable LED one can "tweak" to match REALITY. In other words with the right light one can "build" the Bridgelux and probably improve it. It was used as sort of "proof of concept"

Each tech has its strong and weak points.
The Ushio is low in the green blue region but fills out the blue violet better than the one "color" COB
The COB is richer in the blue to green blue to green region but the spread is wide unlike the MH with the "crisp" peak at 550.
Certainly much different than the 6500k mh's.
Like a RGB led array that most would call the color rendering "crisp" due to the narrow bandwith peaks and then the valley "voids" mh's do about the same. And that is even more pronounced in t5's
Part of the difference in the "look" thing. Using plain jane whites and a set of blues in an led fixture will not achieve the same errr crispness.
Part of that is explained in the pdf.

Many of the differences probably aren't "eye visible" per se since the eye is a blunt instrument really and has its own set of quirks.
A shallow tidepool has already attenuated some red and violet leaving a blue green tone.

Oddly, a practical example..
AI Prime freshwater vs tidepool:

 

[buruskeee]

You are incapable of making valid arguments to support your nonsense. You do a whole lot of typing without saying anything and it's getting tiring.

Let's just take one more of your countless misinformed hyperbole:

Are you joking? Baseless? LOL!
Metal halides have the closest representation of sunlight in spectrum (real full spectrum!)

No. Again, you're not even close to being factual. Baseless hyperbole per usual.

The Sun:

The Sun measured in water in a reef (to prove the previous standard spectrum plot):

Typical 10k MH bulb:

IMO the best MH spectrum, the 20k bulb (Radium/Hamilton) - caution, you might not understand this since it's not color coded for you:

Or are we talking a 7000k bulb that no one uses (probably not even you)? - Ushio bulb:

And now Radion LEDs:

I will now refrain with interacting with your nonsensical posts - I've attempted to have real productive conversation with you, but all you do is flood the thread with videos and hyperbole. Never any REAL data or empirical evidence to support your cries of trying to advocate your empty arguments as facts.

 

[A. grandis]

You are incapable of making valid arguments to support your nonsense. You do a whole lot of typing without saying anything and it's getting tiring.

Let's just take one more of your countless misinformed hyperbole:


No. Again, you're not even close to being factual. Baseless hyperbole per usual.

The Sun:

The Sun measured in water in a reef (to prove the previous standard spectrum plot):

Typical 10k MH bulb:

IMO the best MH spectrum, the 20k bulb (Radium/Hamilton) - caution, you might not understand this since it's not color coded for you:

Or are we talking a 7000k bulb that no one uses (probably not even you)? - Ushio bulb:

And now Radion LEDs:

I will now refrain with interacting with your nonsensical posts - I've attempted to have real productive conversation with you, but all you do is flood the thread with videos and hyperbole. Never any REAL data or empirical evidence to support your cries of trying to advocate your empty arguments as facts.

Nice try. Very colorful. Your friends loved it. LOL!
Nonsense is all that you just posted.
As I've never seen any of those graphics before?! LOL! What a joke!
Bunch of graphics that doesn't mean anything when the real deal comes to play in true life. Anyone can do that.
Do you want to prove that LEDs are actually better than metal halides with graphics and even with results? I can do that for you... I can manipulate and find even those who will actually say there is no differences in growth and coloration, or they could do actually better under LEDs. LOL! I can find documents showing those manipulations done by LED manufacturers to $ell their products. I was almost convinced at first!
It all comes to the personal preferences, if that is the case. I've been saying that all along for more than a decade. Go search!
Read the thousands of past threads and find all those info about LEDs.
There is a thing called confirmation bias, that is to assure to yourself that your beliefs are correct and you chose the right thing. To this date I couldn't find any LED that would surpass the actual results of metal halides to RESEMBLE what I see in the ocean, live the video in the original post of this thread. Not to manipulate situations like using more intensity than the halides, for example... And natural resemblance is exactly what I'm looking for! See... what you want is NOT what I want. Not graphics. Results! Different results with different prospects and different personal preferences makes any comparison subjective.
When I posted that Jake, the guy who tried all, used, and loved LEDs more than anyone I know, posted that the 65K Iwasaki was indeed the best lamp for the corals you guys ignore that. That alone shows that you are here to play the stupid online game of graphics and ignore facts of results with real experience. Can you grow better corals under LEDs than under halides? Everything is so relative, right? People show pictures of ugly blue LED illuminated tanks and think it's the most amazing thing in this world! Are you hurt by this worlds? I'm not here to make you feel good! I'm here to tell you that in the ocean it is not like that! Not even at 100 feet down in the tropics you see something like any blue LED! Corals dying struggling and weak in aquariums that do not look good at all! Suffering each day with the lack of spectrum. Growing distorted and weird. Doesn't even look like a coral anymore after a while. So sad! This is happening in the great majority of the systems in this world. Scam is right! It's a crime to do that with the organisms IMO. If I wanted to make friends in this hobby I would have to agree with all that crap. Sorry, I can respect your choice, but I don't agree with this philosophy nor the line of thinking! I do have many more friens using LEDs than metal halides. They are all my dear friends, but if they ask me I tell the truth. And we are still friends. It's just like when you love the person, but won't agree with the sin! Others will either hate me or love me. I'm not here to tell you lies to agree with graphics. I'm not sponsored by anyone and don't have my tail on the trap depending on other companies to sell aquarium products. Thank God! Telling the truth here.

There are many things we still can't prove on paper, but see happening, and scientists will "prove" to you on paper that isn't true, while in reality happens. Papers and articles that will show partial info as the main subject of what is really happening to prove a point. Search and you will find. Everything is relative. Science is manipulated to the extreme today. It's a shame! And you bring cartoon graphics? Did you know that I can use all of those in my favor? LOL!

Your post of graphics don't mean anything more than Oreo's posts, with all the respect. It's just an interesting colorful comparison, while videos showing results and interviews by very experienced respected aquarists are ignored. Oreo still add to the discussion. You don't. Part of the brainwash of the market strategy/confirmation bias of the marketing in the industry.
Too bad metal halide users don't need to come here in the forum because they don't have much problems with their lights, you know... to testify in favor of their choices. Most of the time people come here to remedy some fault that is happening with their LEDs.

Nice try to put me in your mud!
You guys just looooove to hear what I have to say.
I love and respect the animals too much to agree with garbage trying to prove this and that. My goal in this is to educate the next generation to treat their reef tanks as simple and as natural as possible and with what really matters for the organisms we keep to be in their optimal. Too bad I know how they look in the ocean, huh? Otherwise I would think that the examples online and in those shows are what we should look for.
Thanks for helping me to rant!
I feel much lighter now.
Good night.

 

[DanyL]

I won’t participate in this ridiculous MH vs LED discussion, I will only say that fanatics on any side of the spectrum can’t and wouldn’t accept anything but their own opinions, and them forcing it on others would only make people stay away from wanting to have a civilized discussion with them.
All three options are good and need to be considered, as long as they achieve your goals.

My frag tank is 46X25x16, I use 2 ReeFi Uno 2.0 Pros about 20” above water line with the 90 degree reeflectors @ 219W per fixture and get 380 PAR on the ground.

While I don’t have a sand bed to show how white it is, you can see it by looking at the true colors of the fish, and in real life it is also very, very bright and those who’ve seen it said it reassembles the look and feel of a MH/T5 hybrid.

It has a wide spectrum and enough spare power to choose your own to your liking, while preserving the ability to achieve high PAR numbers, even at a much higher mounting points.

It does come with true UVA, and one that actually isn’t getting filtered out by a plastic cover on the fixture itself, and is able to penetrate the water.

It is able penetrate even at higher mounting heights by using the 60 deg reeflectors - when I tried them, I could at most mount the lights at around 31” and it was too focused for me, I would say 45-50” would be perfect for them.

It has a really nice shimmer, it’s subtle but noticeable.

Notice the shimmer?


Just food for thought.

 

[A. grandis]

Yup... there is taste for everything in this life.
Thanks for showing the example of what's "normal" nowadays.

 

[DanyL]

If I were to say this was under MH you would be cheering and clapping now.

Now all you’ll be doing is looking for the differences and try to justify your biased opinions.

I’ve been reefing for long enough to know how MH looks like in real life, and I like it very much, hence why I allow myself to say that it does in fact look very similar in real life.

Please keep your provocative comments to yourself, because this is the last and only reply you’d get from me.

 

[A. grandis]

I thought you didn't want to participate in the ridiculous MH vs LED discussion.
Maybe I was wrong. LOL!
You do have your biased opinion.

 

[Stigigemla]

I have been building and selling reef lights for 10 years now.
I used 100w led arrays with 90 degree lenses.
With 90 degrees lenses fishes were coloring up very good.
If You ever have cought a bass in full sunlight and seen the colors compared to when a cloud shades the sun you understand why narrow lenses makes a great impact in the colors of fishes.
Thats why i think you should have a narrow angle light source. It will give fish colors that is impossible to achieve with diffused light like T5 and multi led diode lights.
With Bridgelux cob lights it is easy to do that but you will have a fixed color temperature. And have to build it Yourselve.
With the MH:s it was very common to have one or two blue T5:s to complete the light. I think it was good because in the nature the sky light is blue too.
For the looks of tank LED or MH does not change much as long as the angel is narrow.
But with LEDs you will have hlf the electric bill and longer life. No one knows if it will be possible to get the MH:s you want next year. And in 5 years it will almost be impossible.

Corals grow in a better shape with diffused light so now i only build without lenses on the leds.
Most customers care more about the corals than the fishes.

Whatever your choice will be: Good luck.

 

[BeanAnimal]

You guys just looooove to hear what I have to say.

No really, I assure you that nobody here wants to hear what you have to say in this thread. There is a place for the debate, it is not here.

You turn every discussion that you participate in into a MH vs the world thread. If you want to have these debate, start a thread and contain yourself there and stop hijacking other threads.

You are not "educating" people, you are pummeling them with opinion that they didn't ask for.

You are not learning form your peers, you trying to drown them out with pages of hyperbole and opinion while telling them that their opinions and facts are drivel and you hold the only truth.

You are mistaking being invited to reply with being asked to please stop.

You tell is you love us... if you do, please listen to us and stop trying to cram your opinion down everyones throat.

This thread started like this:
You took that as a queue to tell us metal halides are best. You created the argument for your own purpose, nobody said anything was best. It has gone downhill from there.

 

[jonnywink]

I’m still trying to learn. What is the RGB trick

Using RedGreenBlue Leds in place of white.
There is a big difference in the perception of color using that over the blue plus yellow/ green phosphor approach.

It's how t5's do it..
Blue, green, orange

Thank you!

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

Make your own LED

Yes, https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-diy-coral-“burner-”.1015100/

 

[A. grandis]

Actually does.. There is no proof that even w/ JUST halides removing or adding UV/IR is that important.
you are butt-u-ming things with no real proof actually.

Further reading.

Coral skeletons serve as both internal reflectors and UV protection

On tropical reefs, life revolves around the sun. Photosynthetic corals harness the power of the sun for much of their energy requirements. But solar radiation also contains a lot of harmful UV radiation. So how do corals deal with this catch 22? Fascinating enough, their skeletons aide in...

reefs.com

Yup, corals are naturally equipped for UV in full spectrum.
That just shows they can tolerate UV.
Some UV is also used in photosynthesis, remember?
You like to make a big deal about UV.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yup, corals are naturally equipped for UV in full spectrum.
That just shows they can tolerate UV.
Some UV is also used in photosynthesis, remember?
You like to make a big deal about UV.

If we are being open ended with correlation then...

You are equipped to take reasonable blows to the head, does that mean that one should take reasonable blows to the head to live a healthy life?

You are equipped to process a moderate amount of toxin through you body without permanent effect. Does that mean that you should be exposed to those toxins to thrive and live a healthy life?

Raptors have evolved (or have been granted by God) to be equipped with nictitating membranes that deploy to protect their eyes during prey struggles, combat and flight through brush, shall a raptor be poked in the eye to live a healthy and thriving life?

Your skin is equipped for UV protection in full spectrum. You can tolerate UV. Does that mean that you should be exposed to full spectrum UV to live a healthy and thriving life?

Moreover, what are those limits to any of the above where "equipped" becomes too little to protect against a certain threshold of poison, eye pokes, head blows or UV radiation???

Don't answer (honestly), the questions are rhetorical and simply to show the fallacy of your position.

You are conflating being equipped with a defense mechanism to a certain stimulus, to that certain stimulus being healthy.

You are not providing actual data that shows where "tolerance" of any of these stimulus is beneficial and lack of these stimulus is detrimental or qualifying with data to what extent. You are just spouting hyperbolic opinion and false correlation to images and videos that align (often only partially or selectively) with your beliefs and furhter muddying the waters by adding your own interpretation and myopic point of view.

 

[X-37B]

No really, I assure you that nobody here wants to hear what you have to say in this thread. There is a place for the debate, it is not here.

You turn every discussion that you participate in into a MH vs the world thread. If you want to have these debate, start a thread and contain yourself there and stop hijacking other threads.

You are not "educating" people, you are pummeling them with opinion that they didn't ask for.

You are not learning form your peers, you trying to drown them out with pages of hyperbole and opinion while telling them that their opinions and facts are drivel and you hold the only truth.

You are mistaking being invited to reply with being asked to please stop.

You tell is you love us... if you do, please listen to us and stop trying to cram your opinion down everyones throat.

This thread started like this:
You took that as a queue to tell us metal halides are best. You created the argument for your own purpose, nobody said anything was best. It has gone downhill from there.

Like I have always said, run what you want, they all work equally well.

This months tank of the month.
I think this tank should replace the leds with halides for better growth, health, and color.
Their are so many led lit tanks like this, as well as halides, that the battle has become a mute point.
One is not better than the other.
They all work if you know what you are doing, lol.
Peace!
Thread 'REEF OF THE MONTH - February 2024: Maramotreef's Reef' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/reef-of-the-month-february-2024-maramotreefs-reef.1032044/

 

[oreo54]

Like I have always said, run what you want, they all work equally well.

This months tank of the month.
I think this tank should replace the leds with halides for better growth, health, and color.
Their are so many led lit tanks like this, as well as halides, that the battle has become a mute point.
One is not better than the other.
They all work if you know what you are doing, lol.
Peace!
Thread 'REEF OF THE MONTH - February 2024: Maramotreef's Reef' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/reef-of-the-month-february-2024-maramotreefs-reef.1032044/

Well.. if you look careful you will see that 15% of the branches have an added 1 degree tilt off axis that you wouldn't find under halides.

Further the one aqua looking coral should be turquoise (though when collected in the ocean it was mud brown
so its real color is defined by a halide used to frag/market it).

And 10% of the sticks have skeletons that are 1 mil thinner than under halides.

Last the tank should be periodically drained and blasted with 800 microwatts/cm2 of UV-B (measured daylight).... just to let it know its alive.

Playing With Poison – Ultraviolet Radiation

This article documents the results of an experiment designed to examine the effects of artificially-produced UVR on symbiotic zooxanthellae. We'll also examine inexpensive ways to test your system and, if necessary, corrective measures one can take.

reefs.com

Sorry, sarcasm of course.