Discussion in 'Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis' started by Humblefish, Jan 27, 2015.
Sorry That stinks.
Ha- so much for NOT medicating because my fish in QT because it has no sign of disease- so I figured I would just wait 6 weeks. Yesterday was the end of the 6 weeks. So, I went to check him ( Blue Throat Trigger) out and feed a last time in the QT before the big transfer and - what!! he is dead. Swimming fine, good color, and ate fine the day before - but was always very shy and hid most of the time. Guess I should have medicated for Flukes, etc. can anybody suggest what prophylactic meds should have been used.
Well, Copper and Prazi are mainstays in that area. You could go with TTM and prazi, but if you want to protect from velvet, then copper is the way to go instead of TTM.
Without positive ID of what killed him, anyone is going to be guessing at a treatment or to say you should have prophylactically done something. It could have been stress.
99 times out of 100 (or even more) a fish that is eating well in a low-stress QT will recover to full health. (Can you post your QT size, how many fish were in it, what you were feeding and any other useful details? A pic would even be nice.)
In my experience (and assuming all else was well) these cases are very very rare AND there's nothing you could have done when they are fine and swimming one day and dead the next.
To have a chance of treating whatever it was, you'd have to be playing the game at a very different level. You'd be doing skin and/or gill scrapings on new fish to put under a microscope when they come in to scan for infections. Even then you won't always catch it since pathogens can gain entry virtually anywhere in the body. Bacterial infections are pretty much impossible to catch if they are internal...which seems usually to be the case.
I'd even say there's a chance your fish was caught with cyanide and he was already a dead-fish-swimming when you got him. That has been more and more rare these days in my experience, but it's still possible. In that case as well, there's nothing you could have done.
This is very sad, but please try not to over-react about the course you chose. It was not incorrect.
MCARROLL - Thank you - its the second Blue throat this has happened to. SO , maybe its where this specific species are caught, maybe they are still using cyanide in those locations. IN any event. my QT specs are: 40 cube tank, PVC for hiding places, hang on Remora skimmer for some skimming and oxygenation, Heater with a Ranco controller set at 79 degrees, basic 2 bulb T5 light, Tunze mini wave pump set at about 5 seconds on/off, no other fish were in the QT at the time. I do a 10 gallon water change every 2- 3days by taking 10 gallons out of the QT , then add 10 gallons of water from my main system into the QT and putting new water into the main system. I had purchased 3 fish originally - but due to poor communication from the seller ( They send email notification about shipping the fish to wrong email - so I had no idea the package was sent), and the delivery person did not even ring doorbell, so the box set on my front porch for several hours in cold weather before one of my kids noticed the box. The other 2 fish did not last for more than a day or 2 - so the Blue throat had been in the QT on his own for 6 weeks - by then I figured he had recovered from the shipping stress.
I think I forgot to mention that a freshwater dip seems to be extremely well tolerated and minimally stressful if catching and releasing is easy enough, so it is one "treatment" I have regularly used. Water. A 10-15 minute freshwater dip for all incoming fish was common.
And for your case, I have seen flatworms (nee flukes) on blue-throats with a little regularity....but they are also fairly obvious as "disturbed" patches of skin, if not nakedly visible as a whitish, translucent oval shape about the diameter of a pencil eraser or smaller. They usually turn opaque white in the dip and fall off in the first minute or so, but some can be more anchored in place. I would guess that in 6 weeks of observation you would have noticed them.
If you do a freshwater dip now or in the future: use something like a plastic shoebox (or larger) that will have a lot of surface area. Ideally float it in the tank or the sump to get temperature perfect. Also, of course, make sure it's dechlorinated tap water. Forgot the dechlor. on one sleepy morning...you know from what I read, that crud binds with their hemoglobin and prevents oxygen uptake? They suffocate to death when exposed to chloraminated tap water. Thankfully I wasn't off doing something else during the 15 minute dip so I could see it happening and minimize the damage (no deaths), but I felt like a very mean person. :| And never forgot again.
Nice QT!! The only thing more ideal would be to have a rectangular tank since it has more surface area for gas exchange and length for swimming – but that's a seriously minor gripe with your setup.
10 out of 10!
Man that's a tough break...I'm not a huge fan of the state of things where so many retail fish are sold online. Stuff happens in shipping....it just does. Putting that at the retail level (instead of ending at the wholesale level with the shipment to a LFS) makes that stuff happen more frequently.
I'm glad this guy was tough enough to pull through!!
What About Food?
What's the lucky guy been eating since he went into QT....and how much/how often?
This is the basis of his recovery and immune system.
Food= mostly frozen ( brine, mysis) including home made frozen (local club made) fed Am and PM. The only dry food he ate was if it was soaked in the thawed club food first.
Wow... who knew trying to read through 52 pages of post would be this difficult... I will admit, I gave up and jumped to the end after 20 something... So I'm just going to ask my questions.... Sorry and thanks in advance guys.
I am now part of the "learned the hard way" club... Just lost all my fish over the last 2 weeks. First was the smaller clownfish, looked like Brooklynella, but he died within 2 days... Then what looked like an ick outbreak on my sailfin tang... He was a trooper and battled through for over 10 days... In hindsight, I think it was velvet and not ich. The day after he died, my yellow tang stopped eating and died the next day (almost no external signs...). The last survivor was my larger clownfish. With only one fish left and knowing I would start to do things the right way and QT, I started prepping a QT with plans of placing the last clownfish in it as a HT, for 9 weeks while my DT was fallow. He stopped eating yesterday and died today. External symptoms look like Brooklynella, but based on him swimming into the powerhead current, I'm thinking it was velvet too...
Anyways..... (I know, I know... I screwed up which is why I'm setting up a QT to prevent this next time).
Planning on using @Humblefish QT method A. Couple questions:
- Seeing as how it's so difficult to get CP, is there a clear winner between Cupramine and Coppersafe?
- I read copper will not kill Brook. So is there something else I should be treating the QT on top of PraziPro and Copper? When should this be done? (I plan on doing things prophylactically). Are there any other meds I should be doing?
- I have a spare Filstar XP XL (the biggest one with 4 filter chambers). Is there such things as too much flow? Can I use this for my 20L QT? I have the original sponges and black stars (bio media) and some more filter floss and bioballs sitting in my sump now. Was going to fill all 4 chambers with this stuff.
- I've never used active carbon in my filtering. @Humblefish says to use active carbon for 24hrs after the PraziPro. What does this exactly do? Should I get some active carbon for this cannister filter and use it at some point during the QT procedure? Can this be used after the copper treatment to try and eliminate all (most?) copper from the water? My only concern is I'm planning on QT'ing corals and inverts in this tank as well later...
(sorry for the bombardment of questions, if any of these were answered on post pages 30-50, my apologies...)
I'm really sorry for your loses and all the problems you have been having.
Normally either will work. Some fish do better with one than the other. @melypr1985 is working on putting together a reference for which copper products are better for each species. It will be a fantastic reference when it is done!
Formalin or Acriflavine are normally recommended for Brooklynella. The symptoms are normally pretty visible so I personally don't treat without seeing the symptoms.
You can have too much flow. Fish in a QT/HT are typically there because they are a little weaker. You want quite a bit of flow but don't want the fish to struggle against it. I can't tell you if that canister filter would be good for your tank. I personally use a 40 gallon rated HOB on a 10 gallon tank and can throttle it down if needed.
It absorbs the active ingredients from Prazipro out of the water.
You can use something along the lines of Cuprisorb or Poly-Filters. Personally, I would drain and clean the tank prior to using it for coral and/or inverts.
Sorry I can't be more help with the cannister filter but I've never used one. Feel free to create a new thread when you have questions like this. Sometimes these longer threads get a little lost.
So you wouldn't normally use Formalin or Acriflavine prophylactically? I thought I read somewhere, one way to treat velvet was to FW dip, then Acriflavine bath, then copper... could be wrong, read A LOT of stuff the last couple days... So traumatized from this experience that I don't trust myself to recognize Brook and treat....
I was also planning on using the outlet of the cannister filter pointed towards the top of the water to get more oxygen (?) into the water as well as be the "power head". Wasn't going to put in a power head since the I do have an oversized filter. I guess I could always block the water flow with some egg crates if its too strong...
Is there a reason I would want all the PraziPro out of the water before starting copper or another treatment? I thought PraziPro was OK with most all other treatments.
Was going to drain and re-setup anyway. Does draining, cleaning, drying eliminate all copper? I read somewhere about it absorbing in the silicon or any other plastics and could release at an unknown time...
You wouldn't treat wtih formalin unless you need to. Acriflavin isn't something that will be useful in every instance. It's a good antiseptic and can help prevent infection following a parasite infection. That's why it's used in the Velvet protocol.
You could also just remove the powerhead if there is too much flow in the QT. More O2 is always a good thing since these medications will pull the O2 out of the water.
When combined wtih other meds it can sometimes result in a bacterial bloom which can also pull the O2 out of the water. It's better safe than sorry, so we recommend doing these things separately if possible.
As long as you pay close attention to cleaning (with vinegar or bleach) the silicon seams and let them dry completely after rinsing well, it should be fine. Copper will bind with the surface of the silicon but it shouldn't absorb it.
So in reality, you're prophylactically (love typing that word) treating ick and velvet, but not brook?
Now I have some ?s on a fallow tank, but I'll start a new post for that.
I will treat clowns for brook before they go into the system along with ich and velvet, but not other fish unless I know (or suspect) brook is in the system that the fish came out of.
I read some but not every entry, going to start my quarantine setup, is seacheam paraguard good to use?? Rather than or after prazipro?? Thx
I've personally never seen any positive benefits from using Paraguard.
Just wondering if my tank had velvet and all my fish died except 2. Does that mean their immune system will eventually kill the parasite off if I don't add new fish for the 76 day period.
When a fish becomes "immune" to velvet or ich it makes it more difficult for the parasite to feed. This slows the reproductive rate of the parasite and reduces the damage it does to the fish. So, even though you will no longer see visible signs, you will still have a low population level of the velvet parasite in your tank.
Fish are known to develop strong, long-term immunity to velvet though.....I'm not aware of this being the case for other pathogens. I have not seen immunity to Crypto ("ich") characterized as this strong, although fish do form an immune response to ich as well.
Acquired immunity to amyloodiniosis is associated with an antibody response (1998)
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