How to Quarantine

KCPhil · Oct 4, 2021

ctopherl said:
For Option A #1 Copper Power, once you start the metro, do you continue it for the 10-14 days as prescribed (assuming metroplex)?

Hello, did you ever get an answer to your question? I was wondering about that too.

underthereef · Nov 24, 2021

@Humblefish I want to clarify: can you dose prazi at the same time as running cupramine/copper? It seems it would be okay but want to be sure. As a follow up to that, does dosing prazi in the qt tank sufficiently treat the fish? I read somewhere (although I don't remember where now because I've been reading for days and watching hours of videos on QT) that prazi is not effective enough unless done as a concentrated bath dip.

Also, Is it true that some strains of ich may become resistant to copper and having to run at even higher concentrations?

Finally, do any of these QT methods/dosages change for juvenile vs adult fish?

How often have you heard about people who do proper fish QT; but claim that they're display tank became infested through not doing an invert/coral QT? I've heard mixed things about that from it being nearly impossible/hearsay to it being inevitable if you don't QT absolutely everything. I'm curious on the actual possibilities of this as a long term coral QT seems a lot less feasible for me right now with proper matching flow and lighting etc.

Thanks! Trying to soak in as much knowledge as I can. :)

Jay Hemdal · Nov 24, 2021

underthereef said:
@Humblefish I want to clarify: can you dose prazi at the same time as running cupramine/copper? It seems it would be okay but want to be sure. As a follow up to that, does dosing prazi in the qt tank sufficiently treat the fish? I read somewhere (although I don't remember where now because I've been reading for days and watching hours of videos on QT) that prazi is not effective enough unless done as a concentrated bath dip.

Also, Is it true that some strains of ich may become resistant to copper and having to run at even higher concentrations?

Finally, do any of these QT methods/dosages change for juvenile vs adult fish?

How often have you heard about people who do proper fish QT; but claim that they're display tank became infested through not doing an invert/coral QT? I've heard mixed things about that from it being nearly impossible/hearsay to it being inevitable if you don't QT absolutely everything. I'm curious on the actual possibilities of this as a long term coral QT seems a lot less feasible for me right now with proper matching flow and lighting etc.

Thanks! Trying to soak in as much knowledge as I can. :)

Hi, Humblefish isn't active on this forum any more. I can try and answer your questions, but our current quarantine protocol is here:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/current-quarantine-protocol.825055/
I generally do not recommend dosing praziquantel and copper at the same time. It can be done if absolutely needed, but it is usually best to dose copper and then prazi. In almost every instance, fish will die from protozoan diseases before flukes, so it is best to deal with them in that order.

Using prazi as a dip only works if you then move the fish to a new, uninfected tank. Dipping and returning them to the original tank just continues the infection. The problem with prazi is that it only kills the adult flukes, not the eggs or larva. This means it needs to be dosed multiple times in order to break the life cycle....2 doses, 10 days apart and sometimes even 3 doses. The other problem with prazi is that bacteria grow in aquariums that will eat prazi. Multiple doses over time in the same tank will make prazi less and less effective, One option to this is hyposalinity.

There is no evidence of copper resistant ich, but severe cases are more difficult to treat. Some people take too long to raise their copper level at the start, this allows the disease to get the upper hand.

As far as disease transfer on invertebrates, here is an article I wrote on that topic:
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/biosecurity.812/

Jay Hemdal

underthereef · Nov 24, 2021

Thanks for your response! I read over your QT protocol as well. Because of some bacteria reducing effectiveness of prazi, would you recommend periodically breaking down the qt tank and starting over? Ex between fish? I am setting up a new tank and know I am going to be adding fish regularly for a while so I was going to leave the QT up and running for the biological filtration to be maintained. What are your thoughts on this?

In addition, do you believe Seachem Cupramine to be as affective of a copper dosing method at .5mg/L? I'm not sure how that equates to the 2.5 PPM copper power. Would I follow the cupramine dosing instructions for 14 days or continue based on your timelines of 30 days?

Jay Hemdal said:
Hi, Humblefish isn't active on this forum any more. I can try and answer your questions, but our current quarantine protocol is here:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/current-quarantine-protocol.825055/
I generally do not recommend dosing praziquantel and copper at the same time. It can be done if absolutely needed, but it is usually best to dose copper and then prazi. In almost every instance, fish will die from protozoan diseases before flukes, so it is best to deal with them in that order.

Using prazi as a dip only works if you then move the fish to a new, uninfected tank. Dipping and returning them to the original tank just continues the infection. The problem with prazi is that it only kills the adult flukes, not the eggs or larva. This means it needs to be dosed multiple times in order to break the life cycle....2 doses, 10 days apart and sometimes even 3 doses. The other problem with prazi is that bacteria grow in aquariums that will eat prazi. Multiple doses over time in the same tank will make prazi less and less effective, One option to this is hyposalinity.

There is no evidence of copper resistant ich, but severe cases are more difficult to treat. Some people take too long to raise their copper level at the start, this allows the disease to get the upper hand.

As far as disease transfer on invertebrates, here is an article I wrote on that topic:
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/biosecurity.812/

Jay Hemdal

Thanks for your response! I read over your QT protocol as well. Because of some bacteria reducing effectiveness of prazi, would you recommend periodically breaking down the qt tank and starting over? Ex between fish? I am setting up a new tank and know I am going to be adding fish regularly for a while so I was going to leave the QT up and running for the biological filtration to be maintained. What are your thoughts on this?

In addition, do you believe Seachem Cupramine to be as affective of a copper dosing method at .5mg/L? I'm not sure how that equates to the 2.5 PPM copper power. Would I follow the cupramine dosing instructions for 14 days or continue based on your timelines of 30 days?

Jay Hemdal · Nov 24, 2021

underthereef said:
Thanks for your response! I read over your QT protocol as well. Because of some bacteria reducing effectiveness of prazi, would you recommend periodically breaking down the qt tank and starting over? Ex between fish? I am setting up a new tank and know I am going to be adding fish regularly for a while so I was going to leave the QT up and running for the biological filtration to be maintained. What are your thoughts on this?

In addition, do you believe Seachem Cupramine to be as affective of a copper dosing method at .5mg/L? I'm not sure how that equates to the 2.5 PPM copper power. Would I follow the cupramine dosing instructions for 14 days or continue based on your timelines of 30 days?

Thanks for your response! I read over your QT protocol as well. Because of some bacteria reducing effectiveness of prazi, would you recommend periodically breaking down the qt tank and starting over? Ex between fish? I am setting up a new tank and know I am going to be adding fish regularly for a while so I was going to leave the QT up and running for the biological filtration to be maintained. What are your thoughts on this?

In addition, do you believe Seachem Cupramine to be as affective of a copper dosing method at .5mg/L? I'm not sure how that equates to the 2.5 PPM copper power. Would I follow the cupramine dosing instructions for 14 days or continue based on your timelines of 30 days?

periodically breaking down the qt tank and starting over? - Yes, that is the only way I know of to reduce the prazi consuming bacteria. Really though, you should not see issues with bacteria until a tank has been dosed with prazi multiple times - I'm not positive of how many times, but more than three times for sure.

I tested Cupramine at a full dose and it came out to be 0.56 mg/l. I tried to be as accurate as possible in the measurement. That should be about equal to 2.1 mg/l copper power and 2.5 mg/l Coppersafe - which are the full doses for those two products. I know a lot of people run copper power at 2.5 because it doesn't work really well at 2

I don't use Cupramine - its reaction with reducing agents scares me, and I really don't have the time/inclination to run multiple QT using different coppers just to subjectively try to figure out its effectiveness. I've been using Coppersafe for so long that I'm just going to stick with it.

You know, I need to run a copper sensitivity poll. I've NEVER had copper sensitivity issues with coppersafe, yet everyone "knows" copper is toxic. Wouldn't it be ironic if these copper issues were related to the copper product and how it is used? For example, if somebody is using Cupramine and they add ammonia remover, they are likely to kill their fish...adding to the bad rap that copper gets....

Jay

underthereef · Nov 24, 2021

Jay Hemdal said:
periodically breaking down the qt tank and starting over? - Yes, that is the only way I know of to reduce the prazi consuming bacteria. Really though, you should not see issues with bacteria until a tank has been dosed with prazi multiple times - I'm not positive of how many times, but more than three times for sure.

I tested Cupramine at a full dose and it came out to be 0.56 mg/l. I tried to be as accurate as possible in the measurement. That should be about equal to 2.1 mg/l copper power and 2.5 mg/l Coppersafe - which are the full doses for those two products. I know a lot of people run copper power at 2.5 because it doesn't work really well at 2

I don't use Cupramine - its reaction with reducing agents scares me, and I really don't have the time/inclination to run multiple QT using different coppers just to subjectively try to figure out its effectiveness. I've been using Coppersafe for so long that I'm just going to stick with it.

You know, I need to run a copper sensitivity poll. I've NEVER had copper sensitivity issues with coppersafe, yet everyone "knows" copper is toxic. Wouldn't it be ironic if these copper issues were related to the copper product and how it is used? For example, if somebody is using Cupramine and they add ammonia remover, they are likely to kill their fish...adding to the bad rap that copper gets....

Jay

Yea that would be interesting in fact. Along with you and a few other people I've learned from so far, seem to confirm that copper products done correctly aren't actually too dangerous for fish as the so called rap states. When you say Curpamine reacts to reducing agents; so other copper products in your experience such as coppersafe and copperpower do not react with reducing agents? That's interesting, I remember reading mixed things about that whether you can use any reducing agents with any type of copper so I was planning not using any and just making sure I had a proper bio filter working and water changes if needed.

Jay Hemdal · Nov 25, 2021

underthereef said:
Yea that would be interesting in fact. Along with you and a few other people I've learned from so far, seem to confirm that copper products done correctly aren't actually too dangerous for fish as the so called rap states. When you say Curpamine reacts to reducing agents; so other copper products in your experience such as coppersafe and copperpower do not react with reducing agents? That's interesting, I remember reading mixed things about that whether you can use any reducing agents with any type of copper so I was planning not using any and just making sure I had a proper bio filter working and water changes if needed.

So - in 45+ years, I've never added a reducing agent to a tank that I'm treating with copper. Not because I was specifically trying to avoid that (I didn't learn about the Cupramine issue until a few years ago) but because I work really hard to not get into a situation where I need to deal with ammonia control chemically in a QT. I also don't dose copper and formalin at the same time.

My general advice has been don't use an excess of any reducing agent with any bonded copper medications. This includes ammonia removers, dechlorinator (added directly to the tank in excess of the amount needed), and formalin. However, I've been told by others that this isn't a problem with Coppersafe and Copper Power - but I haven't tried it myself.....

Jay

eqbal9947 · Nov 5, 2022

What could it mean if my fish are swimming into flow in DT, a few scratching aswell. They have all except a Manadarin were QT'd in copper for 30 days
They all eat well, breathing is normal, no spots or other weird behavior. I have had high phosphate level and dino outbreak (SCA) which is gone now and all other parameters are good

Jay Hemdal · Nov 5, 2022

eqbal9947 said:
What could it mean if my fish are swimming into flow in DT, a few scratching aswell. They have all except a Manadarin were QT'd in copper for 30 days
They all eat well, breathing is normal, no spots or other weird behavior. I have had high phosphate level and dino outbreak (SCA) which is gone now and all other parameters are good

If the tank has good aeration, it could just be behavioral (some fish like to do that) or more likely, a minor fluke infection. You might consider dosing the tank with prazipro two times, 8 days apart with a 25% water change before the second treatment.
Jay

doubleshot00 · Nov 5, 2022

Opinion on running UV while in QT? I know it needs to be off for prazi but what about copper?

eqbal9947 · Nov 5, 2022

Jay Hemdal said:
If the tank has good aeration, it could just be behavioral (some fish like to do that) or more likely, a minor fluke infection. You might consider dosing the tank with prazipro two times, 8 days apart with a 25% water change before the second treatment.
Jay

Thank you!

Silentdeath5 · Apr 4, 2023

Hello, it’s a high chance this has been answered already within the 109 pages but what is the actual benefit of 30 days in copper compared to 14. What does the extra 2 weeks do?

Jay Hemdal · Apr 5, 2023

Silentdeath5 said:
Hello, it’s a high chance this has been answered already within the 109 pages but what is the actual benefit of 30 days in copper compared to 14. What does the extra 2 weeks do?

14 days is just not long enough. Copper does not kill the resting tomonts. When you do a 14 day copper treatment and then pull the copper, there is a good chance that these surviving tomonts will arise and reinfect the fish. 30 days is the minimum time for coppersafe or copper power. For fish with active infections, that is 30 days beyond the date you last saw symptoms.

The 14 days value comes from the old ionic copper products. They are more toxic, so people try to minimize the length of time with those treatments. Even then, the standard was 21 days. With that short of a period, you will however, need to move the fish to a new tank on day 15, while it is still in copper, to try and avoid the resting tomonts.

Jay