Hybrid TTM to treat all parasites!

[Pudge&Bubbl]

Help me understand - 75 or 150 ppm? How do you get the ppm? And OP said 75mg/L .... mg....

I have liquid hydrogen peroxide. How do I figure this out? I need to begin treatment NOW

 

[Pudge&Bubbl]

I must have missed page 3 the first time through. I found it, figured it out.

Initial 30 minute bath is done and fish is in QT.

She looks really rough. I hope she pulls through. I will be catching the other fish and starting them through this process. They will all stay together, separate from her, as she was the only one showing signs. The tank will go fallow.

Glad this thread was here. I could not get my hands on copper or test kit.

 

[2000se]

So this is straight TTM with H2O2 baths between transfers basically correct?

Second question, is this a safer alternative as opposed to doing formalin baths between transfers instead?

 

[2000se]

As a data point - I just had Ctenochaetus truncates in a H2O2 bath for 30mins at 150ppm (20ml / 1 gal) with no ill effects thus far. After the bath transferred it to a clean tank to begin TTM.

 

[amcvay]

in my area, due to COVID, H202 is nearly impossible to find....hopefully people aren't drinking it. Just had a velvet outbreak that took 3 of my favorite fish. I'll be trying this method from now on. Seems these outbreaks are just commonplace in the hobby now.

 

[MamaP]

in my area, due to COVID, H202 is nearly impossible to find....hopefully people aren't drinking it. Just had a velvet outbreak that took 3 of my favorite fish. I'll be trying this method from now on. Seems these outbreaks are just commonplace in the hobby now.

Sorry for your loss. I lost 5 within a month to an ich outbreak last year, so I feel your pain.

I've been using the Day 1 and Day 7 H2O2 bath at 1.25ml H2O2 : 1c SW in my TTM for several months now and have only lost 1 since. It was a wrasse, and he was only 2 days from getting into the DT and perfectly healthy, so I think maybe he got startled (maybe when my hubby turned on the bright kitchen lights that morning) and hit either the glass top or the side of the tank. His "roommate" was perfectly fine and still is, so that's all I can think of. It sux anytime you lose one. Hope you can find some H2O2 soon!

 

[User]

Sorry for your loss. I lost 5 within a month to an ich outbreak last year, so I feel your pain.

I've been using the Day 1 and Day 7 H2O2 bath at 1.25ml H2O2 : 1c SW in my TTM for several months now and have only lost 1 since. It was a wrasse, and he was only 2 days from getting into the DT and perfectly healthy, so I think maybe he got startled (maybe when my hubby turned on the bright kitchen lights that morning) and hit either the glass top or the side of the tank. His "roommate" was perfectly fine and still is, so that's all I can think of. It sux anytime you lose one. Hope you can find some H2O2 soon!

I lost 2 flasher wrasses the same way- transfer between ttm 4 and observation tank. Was awful. Swam into glass and broke their backs

 

[Nathan Milender]

I would be a little suspicious with the flukes. Worms are probably more resilient than the other parasites. it is also easy to treat for worms at the end. If it does work it would be convenient, and H2o2 is cheap. At the very least this may be a useful acute velvet treatment easy to keep on hand and administer.

 

[HomeSlizzice]

I am curious but hopeful that H2O2 is effective against flukes. I haven't tested it myself though. I did the Hybrid TTM with a flame angel and it was successful for me, but he also never showed any signs of disease.

I would be a little suspicious with the flukes. Worms are probably more resilient than the other parasites. it is also easy to treat for worms at the end. If it does work it would be convenient, and H2o2 is cheap. At the very least this may be a useful acute velvet treatment easy to keep on hand and administer.

 

[Dmb092182]

If I am using 5 gallons of tank water. How many ml is a 150 ppm?

 

[firsttimeowner]

** This information was originally posted here: https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/hybrid-ttm-to-treat-all-parasites.87/ **

*** The information contained here is only EXPERIMENTAL at the moment. Use at your own risk!!! ***

So, I wanted to start a discussing regarding the use of Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) in conjunction with Tank Transfer Method. For those who may not be familiar with TTM read this: Tank Transfer Method

TTM is an effective (non-chemical) treatment for Marine Ich; however the weakness has always been its inability to eradicate other external parasites/worms such as Velvet, brook, uronema, flukes and turbellarians. What if combining TTM with H2O2 could widen the spectrum of treatment?? ;Nailbiting

In this field trial, a single treatment with 75 mg/L hydrogen peroxide greatly reduced levels of Amyloodinium (velvet) infestation, and a second treatment 6 days later reduced Amyloodinium trophonts to a nondetectable level: The Application of Hydrogen Peroxide as a Treatment for the Ectoparasite Amyloodinium ocellatum (Brown 1931) on the Pacific Threadfin Polydactylus sexfilis

IME; any chemical (e.g. formalin, acriflavine) capable of removing Velvet trophonts right on a fish is also capable of killing "surface" parasites & worms such as brook, uronema, flukes and turbellarians (Black Ich). So I am theorizing that a "Hybrid TTM" using H2O2 could eliminate most external parasites/worms by following this protocol:

Day 1 – Fish is placed in initial QT. 30 minutes before transfer (Day 4), turn off all pumps/water movement and dose 150 ppm H2O2 as outlined here: Hydrogen Peroxide

Day 4 – Roughly 72 hours later transfer the fish to new tank. The time of day you do the transfer is unimportant, but never exceed 72 hours from the last transfer. The temperature and SG of the new tank should match the old one perfectly, so you can just catch & release (no acclimation). Transfer as little water as possible with the fish.

Day 7 – Repeat. 30 minutes before transfer (Day 10), turn off all pumps/water movement and dose 150 ppm H2O2 as outlined here: Hydrogen Peroxide

Day 10 – Repeat.

Day 13 – Repeat and done (fish should now be parasite & worm free!!!)

^^ Please note that H2O2 is only dosed twice, 6 days apart and for a maximum of 30 minutes. This is to ensure all velvet trophonts have been eliminated and also lines up for worms that need to be treated a second time due to hatchlings. Everything else about doing TTM stays exactly the same!

Will this work?? I honestly don't know. The science behind it is sound and everything lines up, but it needs to be thoroughly tested before going mainstream. Since starting my business, I'm finding myself with less & less time to experiment so I'm hoping some of you will pick up my slack.

Why TTM is still needed with H2O2: IMO; it is unlikely that H2O2 can penetrate through a fish's epithelium (outer skin layer) to reach Ich trophonts. Eliminating "surface" parasites & worms is a more realistic expectation. So, TTM is still needed to prophylactically address the possibility of Ich!

Other thoughts/concerns:

1. Avoid using H2O2 on fish with an open wound or obvious infection. Although H2O2 is an antiseptic, it has been found to slow the healing process and possibly worsen scarring by killing the healthy cells surrounding a cut.
2. It is only reasonable to assume that H2O2 treats parasites/worms on the outside of a fish. Internal parasites & worms will need to be treated separately: Internal Issues
3. Post treatment, it is always wise to observe the fish in a non-medicated observation tank. This applies whether you are utilizing Traditional TTM or Hybrid TTM, to ensure treatment was successful. Using black mollies in this observation tank can help ensure no diseases are still present: Black Molly Quarantine

@Humblefish having read your article its very informative and I am wondering if you could possibly help me with your expertise, I have a few questions if you could kindly answer me:
1) I have D/D UV sterilizer on a Red Sea max S500 tank 625 litres what flow rate pump would you recommend on it?
2) NYOS 220 skimmer FMr75 reactor with rowa phos in, do we need more or is this sufficient?

We have just added 3litres of Sera Spiroax 25mm now in the sump and D/D doser dosing ATI Pro

I am not sure if this is helping much with the tank as i keep getting re-occuring issues with fish the latest is my foxface to be struck down with.....well quite frankly i am not sure as some of the more experienced members commented they think it is Brook , however at present he has brown spots on his body but he is swimming normally and feeding normally, im just cautious about fresh water dipping him as will this cause more harm than good to him?

Thank you so much in advance.

 

[HomeSlizzice]

@Humblefish @HotRocks

Quick question about TTM timing.

I prefer to do my transfers every other day (48 hours), and I know the recommended minimum total time for TTM is 12 days. From my reading ich only stays on a fish for a max total of 7 days, and 4 days for velvet.

My main question is:
If doing the TTM/H2O2 hybrid method, and doing transfers every 48 hours the entire time, why couldn’t I end the TTM after 8 or 9 days (4 or 5 transfers)?

My reason for the question is for difficult to feed fish, like mandarins or leopard wrasses to QT.

Also, has anyone done any baby brine shrimp hatching in the TTM tanks? Could he a good way to feed the fish. Thoughts?

 

[amcvay]

This may sound like a stupid idea, but what if the new TTM + H202 was augmented to add Chloroquine Phosphate for 10 days total in additional to the Peroxide baths before every transfer? Kind of a silver bullet for all parasites, plus a faster QT as opposed to a full 30 or 45 day QT? After 10 days of TTM + H202 + CP, there should be almost zero chance for Ich, Brook or Velvet to live in/on the fish. I'm assuming that the H202 may degrade the CP, but since it would only be for 30 min, assuming the fish would go into new water with full therapeutic dosage of CP after the dip, I assume this would maintain the protection of the CP for the full 10 days?

Any reason the above wouldn't work? Obviously CP is hard to find these days too.

 

[Josh Kraft]

This may sound like a stupid idea, but what if the new TTM + H202 was augmented to add Chloroquine Phosphate for 10 days total in additional to the Peroxide baths before every transfer? Kind of a silver bullet for all parasites, plus a faster QT as opposed to a full 30 or 45 day QT? After 10 days of TTM + H202 + CP, there should be almost zero chance for Ich, Brook or Velvet to live in/on the fish. I'm assuming that the H202 may degrade the CP, but since it would only be for 30 min, assuming the fish would go into new water with full therapeutic dosage of CP after the dip, I assume this would maintain the protection of the CP for the full 10 days?

Any reason the above wouldn't work? Obviously CP is hard to find these days too.

Using just TTM, H2O2 and feeding food with GC mixed in should have your fish clear after 14 days. After that is just a recommended observation period.

 

[LovesDogs_CatsRokay]

I just had 3 anthias die 2 days after completing hybrid TTM. I had done 30 min H2O2 baths before transfers 2 and 4, and general cure treatments before the end of transfers 1 and 2. On Tuesday I transferred them to a holding tank with a coral beauty angel that had also completed TTM. This morning I woke up to find all 3 anthias dead. There is 0 ammonia in the tank, and salinity and temp are both okay. The coral beauty is still alive. Did I do something wrong or did hybrid TTM fail me? Is there anyway to know? This comes after losing 20+ fish to velvet in my 300g.

 

[Devaji]

I just had 3 anthias die 2 days after completing hybrid TTM. I had done 30 min H2O2 baths before transfers 2 and 4, and general cure treatments before the end of transfers 1 and 2. On Tuesday I transferred them to a holding tank with a coral beauty angel that had also completed TTM. This morning I woke up to find all 3 anthias dead. There is 0 ammonia in the tank, and salinity and temp are both okay. The coral beauty is still alive. Did I do something wrong or did hybrid TTM fail me? Is there anyway to know? This comes after losing 20+ fish to velvet in my 300g.

sorry to hear that. I have high hopes for the hybrid TTM. that said I am leaning towards a paulB no QT method.
IDK I have a few months to make up my mind.
sorry for your loss. if I remember right those fish can be hard to QT? beautiful fish wish we could know what the cause of death was.

 

[Bpp124987]

I just had 3 anthias die 2 days after completing hybrid TTM. I had done 30 min H2O2 baths before transfers 2 and 4, and general cure treatments before the end of transfers 1 and 2. On Tuesday I transferred them to a holding tank with a coral beauty angel that had also completed TTM. This morning I woke up to find all 3 anthias dead. There is 0 ammonia in the tank, and salinity and temp are both okay. The coral beauty is still alive. Did I do something wrong or did hybrid TTM fail me? Is there anyway to know? This comes after losing 20+ fish to velvet in my 300g.

What kind of anthias and what was the feeding regimen? Were they eating?

 

[Tamberav]

New Longnose butterfly was showing ich so I performed TTM/peroxide on:

Spendid Pencil Wrasse
Longfin Fairy Wrasse
ORA Blue Mandarin
Longnose Butterfly
Royal Gramma
Desjardini Sailfin Tang


no losses.

Observation tank with mollies, been here 3 weeks, no sign of disease.

 

[LovesDogs_CatsRokay]

What kind of anthias and what was the feeding regimen? Were they eating?

Bimacs, and yes, they were eating mysis and ROE a couple times a day.

 

[Drew Halliday]

@Humblefish @HotRocks

Quick question about TTM timing.

I prefer to do my transfers every other day (48 hours), and I know the recommended minimum total time for TTM is 12 days. From my reading ich only stays on a fish for a max total of 7 days, and 4 days for velvet.

My main question is:
If doing the TTM/H2O2 hybrid method, and doing transfers every 48 hours the entire time, why couldn’t I end the TTM after 8 or 9 days (4 or 5 transfers)?

My reason for the question is for difficult to feed fish, like mandarins or leopard wrasses to QT.

Also, has anyone done any baby brine shrimp hatching in the TTM tanks? Could he a good way to feed the fish. Thoughts?

I’m wondering about ending my TTM after 8-10 days as well. I have a mandarin and pipe fish in there now that I am trying to get through with sacrificial rubble rock and newly hatched bribe shrimp.