I need tips to cool the water

Copingwithpods · May 24, 2020

Reeffragger said:
How Radioactive is Our Ocean?

ourradioactiveocean.org

Let's not pollute Op's thread, start a thread in the lounge, let's discus it.

edit: tag me in it

Albertoinbox · May 24, 2020

Plunder said:
Am I guessing maybe the Fluval 13.5g tank? If it is, I'm having the same issue. Honestly, love the tank but the heat displacement from the light is abysmal. I looked into maybe crafting something, however, it seemed like more work. I ended up just buying the AI Prime 16 HD light. The combination between the light, worthless heatsink no fan, and the lid is causing excessive heating issues. It's a great design, but those elements need improvement. The best, season round, without the need for a chiller is just placing aquarium away from possible direct or indirect light sources. Remove the lid from the tank so it can breathe and keep a light a maximum of 4 inches from the waterline (for LEDs and depends on the depth of the tank). Some houses collect heat in certain areas more than others, someone should take this into consideration. But in the end, I think the heat spikes in the summer won't be as intense. Those improvements alone should decrease your current temps by 2 degrees F. At least that's my guess.

Yes it is, theres a picture of it on an earlier thread.

The light that comes with it is very good quality (meaning well built with good materials) and sure, the slim black lid incorporating the light seamlessly and the touch button are all very sleek and all but in fact it sucks big time.

The light is very strong but with poor spectrum, only either white or blue presets or off. It was great for growing algae while my corals withered away. The heat is ridiculous, you could cook thanksgiving turkey with it. If it was any good (spectrum wise, PAR) it would have to be held much higher above the water to give room for the heat to dissipate, but no, they sit this bar of light 1 inch above the water on a 13.5 gallon tank with a tight fitting plastic lid. Transforms the tank into a cooking pot. Not sure what was the idea behind the design, really.

The tank itself is great. I tried an intermediate solution with the CurrentUSA Orbit Loop whatever but found it to be mediocre in terms of efficiency for a reef. Also was hot and sat 1" above the water. Got the mount for it and it went from bad to ugly. Got rid of it just when the G5s had been released. Night and day. Although other brands like AI also excel and the 16 HD looks solid. I admire the Fluval brand because the German EHEIM is behind and they are top engineering, quality end efficiency without the fanciness, but they should give up on shipping this product with a light until they come up with a good light with a proper design or team up with the top guys. Does anyone else have a tank closed with a tight lid with the (hot) light under it just 1" over the water? Maybe on a large tank its even beneficial, doubling as a heater.

So, the lid is long gone and I have a super clearance of 7.5" with the standard G5 mount. The tank is as far from light coming in from the balcony as possible. Besides, I keep blinds as closed as possible.

I think I can keep the water at 79 or 80, we'll see. But today it went to 81.7 and could've gone higher and I cant let that happen, I need something to bring it down just in case. Not because 81.7 is too high but it cant vary that much in such a short time, all the time. (BTW: this is already information I have received in this post)

I'll just see what is the most natural stable temperature of the water in room temperature. If its within acceptable range (probably 79 or 80) I'll try to keep it there.

Plunder · May 24, 2020

Albertoinbox said:
Yes it is, theres a picture of it on an earlier thread.

The light that comes with it is very good quality (meaning well built with good materials) and sure, the slim black lid incorporating the light seamlessly and the touch button are all very sleek and all but in fact it sucks big time.

The light is very strong but with poor spectrum, only either white or blue presets or off. It was great for growing algae while my corals withered away. The heat is ridiculous, you could cook thanksgiving turkey with it. If it was any good (spectrum wise, PAR) it would have to be held much higher above the water to give room for the heat to dissipate, but no, they sit this bar of light 1 inch above the water on a 13.5 gallon tank with a tight fitting plastic lid. Transforms the tank into a cooking pot. Not sure what was the idea behind the design, really.

The tank itself is great. I tried an intermediate solution with the CurrentUSA Orbit Loop whatever but found it to be mediocre in terms of efficiency for a reef. Also was hot and sat 1" above the water. Got the mount for it and it went from bad to ugly. Got rid of it just when the G5s had been released. Night and day. Although other brands like AI also excel and the 16 HD looks solid. I admire the Fluval brand because the German EHEIM is behind and they are top engineering, quality end efficiency without the fanciness, but they should give up on shipping this product with a light until they come up with a good light with a proper design or team up with the top guys. Does anyone else have a tank closed with a tight lid with the (hot) light under it just 1" over the water? Maybe on a large tank its even beneficial, doubling as a heater.

So, the lid is long gone and I have a super clearance of 7.5" with the standard G5 mount. The tank is as far from light coming in from the balcony as possible. Besides, I keep blinds as closed as possible.

I think I can keep the water at 79 or 80, we'll see. But today it went to 81.7 and could've gone higher and I cant let that happen, I need something to bring it down just in case. Not because 81.7 is too high but it cant vary that much in such a short time, all the time. (BTW: this is already information I have received in this post)

I'll just see what is the most natural stable temperature of the water in room temperature. If its within acceptable range (probably 79 or 80) I'll try to keep it there.

Turn it down to 77, that will also help adjust for heat spikes.

Fluval is a well-built budget brand. The "Evo" design actually attracted me to start a saltwater tank. They do seem new in the game, however. I think once they work out some design flaws in the light (their new marine 3.0 should have been installed, even with a higher mark-up), better return pump, better filtration, and lid, they will have a really solid piece of equipment.

I ended up upgrading all of it, some of it might have worked, but in the long run it seems easier for the maintenance and health of the tank. It did give me some extra equipment though. Fully upgraded and modded, it's a hard tank to beat for its size.

Plunder · May 24, 2020

Albertoinbox said:
I cant say anything about there being a misconception. But I do can say that evaporation has a very cooling effective power. If you want to feel the cooling power of evaporation, jump in the pool then stand in the wind. As water evaporates it gets very cold. Awesome.

I was able to find a USB fan, couldn't find the 3D printed though.

I could use your file to print me a fan fixture...PC fans are cheap and I can get them. Do you have the files posted somewhere? That would be great, thanks.

So does wind or heat evaporate it, or both? There is no wind in a fish tank so you must take that into consideration. I can see the process of evaporation happening at an accelerated rate with the wind, but what about if the wind isn't a variable?

Albertoinbox · May 24, 2020

Plunder said:
So does wind or heat evaporate it, or both? There is no wind in a fish tank so you must take that into consideration. I can see the process of evaporation happening at an accelerated rate with the wind, but what about if the wind isn't a variable?

Both, but wind is by far more efficient as it physically "forces" the water to evaporate. You can definitely accelerate evaporation with heat yes, it will evaporate faster. But although assisting with the evaporation, heat will defeat the cooling effect as it works against it.

if you stood naked soaking wet in the wind in the hot summer it would feel refreshing but if you do that in freezing temperatures you will be in hypothermia in less than 10 minutes and die pretty quick.

If theres no wind and the water surface is just in contact with the air it will evaporate and cool at a much lower rate, and dependent off room temperature. The higher the room temp, the quicker it evaporates. But still at a rate that together with a warm room temperature is too low for the cooling effect to cool the water significantly.

With no wind you have very little cooling effect, practically just slow evaporation.

Thats why any wind you add to your tank will make a significant difference. The "more" wind the cooler. The only downside is that the stronger the wind is the faster water evaporates, which will bring you daily salinity variation problems if you dont have an automatic top-off system. Specially in such a tiny tank (I think I will start calling it the salt bucket) as mine.

Thats why chillers are a better option because they use air to cool the water but it doesnt come in contact with the water and therefore there's no evaporation. Some might even have coolant fluid inside, like a motorcycle radiator, since it cools the water more efficiently than air because liquid is more dense than air and will exchange heat faster.

Chillers might also work with simple heat dissipation much like a car radiator or a refrigerator. Some have added fans to boost cooling by blowing surrounding air onto the metal tube which in turn cools the water running inside (car radiator) while some have enough room to run a long serpentine and dont need a fan (refrigerator). Draft beer serpentines run through a refrigerator unit to really lower the temperature.

Actually, if you designed a chiller that would run the water through a metal serpentine and back into the tank it would definitely work! Maybe it would even be enough without fans, which would make for a better product. From what Ive seen, today its either having to drill a hole in the glass (although efficient not very happy with this solution) or having noisy fans giving you evaporation issues.

Albertoinbox · May 24, 2020

Copingwithpods said:
Let's not pollute Op's thread, start a thread in the lounge, let's discus it.

edit: tag me in it

Thanks, that was like a shark popping out of the blue...

Albertoinbox · May 24, 2020

Albertoinbox said:
Both, but wind is by far more efficient as it physically "forces" the water to evaporate. You can definitely accelerate evaporation with heat yes, it will evaporate faster. But although assisting with the evaporation, heat will defeat the cooling effect as it works against it.

if you stood naked soaking wet in the wind in the hot summer it would feel refreshing but if you do that in freezing temperatures you will be in hypothermia in less than 10 minutes and die pretty quick.

If theres no wind and the water surface is just in contact with the air it will evaporate and cool at a much lower rate, and dependent off room temperature. The higher the room temp, the quicker it evaporates. But still at a rate that together with a warm room temperature is too low for the cooling effect to cool the water significantly.

With no wind you have very little cooling effect, practically just slow evaporation.

Thats why any wind you add to your tank will make a significant difference. The "more" wind the cooler. The only downside is that the stronger the wind is the faster water evaporates, which will bring you daily salinity variation problems if you dont have an automatic top-off system. Specially in such a tiny tank (I think I will start calling it the salt bucket) as mine.

Thats why chillers are a better option because they use air to cool the water but it doesnt come in contact with the water and therefore there's no evaporation. Some might even have coolant fluid inside, like a motorcycle radiator, since it cools the water more efficiently than air because liquid is more dense than air and will exchange heat faster.

Chillers might also work with simple heat dissipation much like a car radiator or a refrigerator. Some have added fans to boost cooling by blowing surrounding air onto the metal tube which in turn cools the water running inside (car radiator) while some have enough room to run a long serpentine and dont need a fan (refrigerator). Draft beer serpentines run through a refrigerator unit to really lower the temperature.

Actually, if you designed a chiller that would run the water through a metal serpentine and back into the tank it would definitely work! Maybe it would even be enough without fans, which would make for a better product. From what Ive seen, today its either having to drill a hole in the glass (although efficient not very happy with this solution) or having noisy fans giving you evaporation issues.

Theres something wrong with the second paragraph, seems to stand more on the outside temperature side. Let me try to fix it.

If you stand outside soaking wet in the lowest temperature you can stand it would be cold but you would survive, although if you add strong wind you'll suffer from hypothermia and die. Makes sense now? While standing wet in hot weather feels refreshing if you add strong wind to your exposed wet skin you will be dry in no time, but you will also be one cold dude in need of a hot shower.

lion king · May 24, 2020

You are really making it more complicated than it needs to be. Those small fans are virtually silent, you can not hear them unless you are right on top of them, and then you might have to check with your hand. The evaporation will compensate for all the pumps and such that heat the water and even drop the temp below room temp. You just have to use a temp controller, it will turn the fan on and off and keep the water temp where you set it. You'll use an ato to top off the evaporation and that will keep the sg stable. It's a simple, flawless set up.

Albertoinbox · May 24, 2020

Yes, I scrutinized the issue just for curiosity. Its just my nature to go the extra mile just to see if theres something different up ahead. I hope it was a healthy debate for all.

My conclusion is simple, its the fans and ATO like you mentioned. Its just another gear setup, It'll work and be awesome.

Thanks so much to everyone that shared!

Cheers

Plunder · May 25, 2020

Try to see if you can get some 80mm NOCTUA fans either 110v or USB (get power extender with USB). They are the finest of fans for CPUs as I have one. They are a high IP rating of 67 so it will help protect against water and other things ,you need something with a water resistant IP (higher=better) rating so you can mount them under the cover with something (epoxy maybe) that way you'll never see them but they will be hard at work keeping the light/inside of tank well ventilated. Seems like an easy solutuon without getting to complicated, plus you do it right and run the wires under the lid, you'll never even see them let alone hear them over the tank. Other options seem expensive, but with some high quality fans and smart mounting, I think it could really do wounders. Look at AI Prime HD 16 fan, I just ordered one and they have a fan pre-installed. These things needs to breath or you're just baking.

jsvand5 · May 25, 2020

Reeffragger said:
Cesium exposire isnt safe bte.. omce it gets in your body it stays there until its half life is gone in 37+ years

Not true. Cesium’s physical half life is just over 30 years but it’s biological half life is only ~ 70 days.

Regardless, it doesn’t have much to do with lowering a fish tanks temperature. To the OP, I’d just cool the room another degree or 2.

Copingwithpods · May 25, 2020

+1 all of the above except the infinity fans, I have 3 and they are not worth the coin, great looks, whisper quiet and very high quality but very lacking in cfm

Plunder · May 25, 2020

Copingwithpods said:
+1 all of the above except the infinity fans, I have 3 and they are not worth the coin, great looks, whisper quiet and very high quality but very lacking in cfm

I just wanted to use it as an example, that's why I highly suggested NOCTUA fans, you really do get what you pay for with them. I liked the picture because it shows people the different capabilities of some of these options, which are built-in to some products already and doesn't have to be expensive or complicated (small speed controller),. But I highly suggest something very high IP as salt and other crap is going to be around it, you want something that's going to last.

Plunder · May 25, 2020

After looking up IP 67 this is what I got.

IP67

Protected from total dust ingress.

Protected from immersion between 15 centimeters and 1 meter in depth.

I assuming immersion is in the water? I was actually shocked, does that mean someone can actually use it as a wavemaker perhaps as well? Check out their official site read about them, you'll be impressed. I'm new to this hobby but I'm been building computers and tinkering with programming languages since I was young. I'd like to see more improvements with the reef hobby and pc hobby. Expensive controllers and what not could be eliminated with the use of a computer and small Bluetooth/wifi controllers/cord (booo), every system only needs one brain, just a powerful one, why not integrate it with your powerful (hopefully) home computer (or Raspberry Pi) and one easy to use program or operations system that designed for fish tank operation.? Now you could use apple or android but you would be checking out "stats". Someone please show me an all in one controlled fish tank that's not custom-built (automation should include everything).

Do you know how many sensors a typical overclocking enthusiast uses on a gaming/enthusiast PC? I have over 6... 6 individual sensors telling different temperatures from hard drive, motherboard, GPU, CPU, and several additional ports... all in a 6inch x 30inch box. Yet my fish tank only uses one, unless I buy a bunch of equipment and have cords coming out of every end.

The technology is there, but what I'm not seeing in this hobby is ZERO integration with other products/equipment. Just look at how Google and amazon integrate themselves...yes yes, I know, but how many of us here use these products every day?

Albertoinbox · May 25, 2020

Plunder said:
After looking up IP 67 this is what I got.

IP67 Protected from total dust ingress. Protected from immersion between 15 centimeters and 1 meter in depth.

I assuming immersion is in the water? I was actually shocked, does that mean someone can actually use it as a wavemaker perhaps as well? Check out their official site read about them, you'll be impressed. I'm new to this hobby but I'm been building computers and tinkering with programming languages since I was young. I'd like to see more improvements with the reef hobby and pc hobby. Expensive controllers and what not could be eliminated with the use of a computer and small Bluetooth/wifi controllers/cord (booo), every system only needs one brain, just a powerful one, why not integrate it with your powerful (hopefully) home computer (or Raspberry Pi) and one easy to use program or operations system that designed for fish tank operation.? Now you could use apple or android but you would be checking out "stats". Someone please show me an all in one controlled fish tank that's not custom-built (automation should include everything).

Do you know how many sensors a typical overclocking enthusiast uses on a gaming/enthusiast PC? I have over 6... 6 individual sensors telling different temperatures from hard drive, motherboard, GPU, CPU, and several additional ports... all in a 6inch x 30inch box. Yet my fish tank only uses one, unless I buy a bunch of equipment and have cords coming out of every end.

The technology is there, but what I'm not seeing in this hobby is ZERO integration with other products/equipment. Just look at how Google and amazon integrate themselves...yes yes, I know, but how many of us here use these products every day?

Brilliant!

Plunder · May 25, 2020

I'm really enjoying this new hobby and the people I'm meeting along the way! I would really like seeing this hobby becoming computer-controlled, though. So many variables in this hobby it would be hard for Einstein to manage a 13.5g, Fluval. Humans can do an amazing job but we are talking about an ecosystem that is probably more evolved than our brains(j/k, I don't know!) I've recently learned bigger tanks have more stable parameters.. which makes total sense...explains why the ocean holds very stable parameters... and who said size wasn't everything!

Gino · Jun 5, 2020

IceProbe Thermoelectric Aquarium Chiller

Easily install the IceProbe Water Chiller in your small aquarium for quiet, efficient cooling. Easy installation with a bulkhead or suspend for top mounting with simple bracket Uses the Peltier Effect - Thermoelectric cooling system whereby probe cools water by removing heat and radiating...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

Back in the days I use one of these chillers in a 20 gallon tank. And it did the job as it should. Just keep the fan clean all the time. Because it's a peltier chiller and exchange the heat through the heat sink. This is definitely your best bet.