Ich in QT Question

[truetricia]

I've got 4 clowns that have been in QT since 4 Oct (14 days). They've been treated with Cupramine at the therapeutic dose of 0.5ppm for the entirety of the time in the tank (testing with Seachem's test kit). They were put in QT because two of the clowns, my ORA Stubby ocellaris, were showing small white spots along the base of their dorsal fins after having them for a month (I did a 2 week passive QT with them at first). The other two ORA Snowflake clowns were asymptomatic. The spots disappeared after a couple days, but I still put them in medicated QT just to be safe.

However, today I noticed that the same female Stubby had the same white spots just at the base of her dorsal fin. After 14 days in medicated QT, should this be happening? I immediately tested the copper and confirmed a 0.5-0.6 strength. I don't have any pictures....

Looking for some advice.... @Humblefish @4FordFamily

 

[4FordFamily]

Brook tends to start around this area. I’d add metroplex for the next 14 days with copper to eradicate both just in case.

Photos would be helpful for ID as well.

 

[truetricia]

Brook tends to start around this area. I’d add metroplex for the next 14 days with copper to eradicate both just in case.

Photos would be helpful for ID as well.

Thank you!
I'll order metroplex and start them on that. It doesn't look like Humblefish's pictures of Brook. It has the typical white spot look of ich, but directly on the base of the dorsal fin, and just one or two on either side.

I'll work on getting pictures....

I should also state that this particular female has been through a dose of API General Cure bc she had stringy white poop. She still does. I'm wondering if this is a bacterial issue...

 

[4FordFamily]

Thank you!
I'll order metroplex and start them on that. It doesn't look like Humblefish's pictures of Brook. It has the typical white spot look of ich, but directly on the base of the dorsal fin, and just one or two on either side.

I'll work on getting pictures....

I should also state that this particular female has been through a dose of API General Cure bc she had stringy white poop. She still does. I'm wondering if this is a bacterial issue...

Could also be the start of lympho. I will have to check out the photo

 

[Humblefish]

Could also be the start of lympho. I will have to check out the photo

^^ This is more along the lines of what I'm thinking: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/lymphocystis.257461/

I've seen a lot of clownfish with persistent Lympho.

 

[truetricia]

^^ This is more along the lines of what I'm thinking: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/lymphocystis.257461/

I've seen a lot of clownfish with persistent Lympho.

Thank you both!

So I will work on getting pictures tomorrow, but how do I diagnose lympho v. ich? The lack of response to copper? If another fish seems to get it? The male Stubby got a single spot, but they're from the same batch at ORA and could be equally exposed.

Based on all the information, I'll continue the copper treatment for the full 30 days, and add metroplex to the mix as well. After 30 days, I'll continue to observe the clowns and see what happens. If it persists, then I consider it lympho? I read the recent article on treating lympho with doses of lysine, which I know works in humans to control particular viruses, so perhaps I'll explore this as well down the line.

 

[truetricia]

So I woke them up to take pictures.... The female Stubby has three raised bumps that are white in color. Two on her left side and one on her right, both at just before her dorsal fin base.

 

[4FordFamily]

That looks like more of an injury to me. Is it getting worse slowly or quickly.

 

[Paul B]

I personally would put that fish in a properly functioning tank, feed it some worms and go out and have a nice dinner, maybe with a little Pino Noir.
Medication will give it stringy poop as will a lot of stress, such as what he is going through.
Metroplex, copper, Prizapro will destroy it's stomach bacteria causing a sicker fish.

I feel that if this fish goes through all this, She (or he depending on it's mood) will cease to function. Just my opinion of course as I am now going out to look for cold stranded sea turtles.

 

[Humblefish]

Since you already have them in QT, I would start dosing Metroplex + Kanaplex for 10 days. The former will treat Brook/Uronema; whereas the latter will address the possibility of a bacterial infection. Cover all your bases. If this is just Lympho, it will eventually clear up once the fish are in clean water and the immune system strengthens enough to send the virus back into remission.

 

[truetricia]

Since you already have them in QT, I would start dosing Metroplex + Kanaplex for 10 days. The former will treat Brook/Uronema; whereas the latter will address the possibility of a bacterial infection. Cover all your bases. If this is just Lympho, it will eventually clear up once the fish are in clean water and the immune system strengthens enough to send the virus back into remission.

I'm attaching some additional pictures. She's got a few more spots on her right side. They look like salt specs under her skin. They don't look like cauliflower growths like I'd expect with lympho.

So should I finish the 30 days of copper treatment and then remove the copper and start the 10 day kanaplex+metroplex? Or do I go ahead and start now? And do I just do the single female or the whole group of four?

Thank you in advance!!! @4FordFamily @Humblefish

@Paul B You know I have so much respect for you, but I'm sticking to a prophylactic method here for the tanks. Have fun saving wildlife!!!!

 

[truetricia]

 

[truetricia]

That looks like more of an injury to me. Is it getting worse slowly or quickly.

It's increasing in number from 0, to 2, and now 4. I suppose the other clown could be causing them? I haven't seen them fighting, but just posturing a bit at each other but generally hanging out next to each other peacefully.

 

[4FordFamily]

It's increasing in number from 0, to 2, and now 4. I suppose the other clown could be causing them? I haven't seen them fighting, but just posturing a bit at each other but generally hanging out next to each other peacefully.

Hmm. I’d follow humblefish’s suggestion above for 14 days and see what that lands you. That’s an odd one!

 

[Paul B]

@Paul B You know I have so much respect for you, but I'm sticking to a prophylactic method here for the tanks. Have fun saving wildlife!!!!

Well if you have to go that route, my friend Humble would be the guy to follow. Let us know how it works out. Good Luck.

Time to look for stranded turtles.

 

[Humblefish]

Have you done a FW dip to see if those dislodge? If not, they could be viral lesions but I still think I would dose Metro + Kana for good measure. That combination seems to fix many weird diseases clownfish get.

 

[truetricia]

@Humblefish @4FordFamily @Paul B

Thank you all again for your advice and assistance (and wine recommendations, although, Paul, I'm allergic to reds and prefer a good New Zealand sauvignon blanc).

The main reason I'm not sold on viral is that the smaller male Stubby ocellaris also developed the same spots, which originally led me to think ich. However, they are both from ORA and could both be infected with the same virus. When it first appeared in the DT, I pulled out the larger female and did a FW dip. The spots did not go opaque as would be expected with flukes (again, leading me to suspect ich).

Yesterday, I did a 25% water change, tested copper to ensure therapeutic levels, and then followed Humblefish's recipe for the medicated slurry with Focus, Metro and Kana. They've had two feedings so far with it. At the beginning of the day, I noticed several more white spots on the larger Stubby female, and a couple on the male. I just checked on them again, and there is improvement in both the number of spots and protrusion.

I also noticed that my small Snowflake male had a red spot about halfway between his gills and his midline. His Snowflake female was pestering him, so it could be simply a mark from her. I separated her out from everyone (she's getting more aggressive in QT), to ensure that no symptoms are from her. Neither Snowflake has any visible white spots on them.

Also, Paul, you'll be glad to know they're eating great! They're fat little pigs. The Snowflake female especially! And they're getting a mix of pellets, frozen, and a vitamin mixed in with their meds. They eat until they look like they're going to burst. I may treat QT differently than you do, but I absolutely agree with you on nutrition!

Hopefully the mix of slurry med-soaked food and copper kills whatever is hurting them. I'll keep it up for a total of 30 days and see where they're at then with their health. I really appreciate your all's help in the treatment and diagnosis. The information that you all have posted previously (and here) is extremely helpful.

 

[Paul B]

I love it when fish look better, especially snowflakes as I know a couple of humans like that.

 

[4FordFamily]

Lympho can worsen quickly and is very contagious, particularly to fish in a weakened immune state (in medications for example). An updated photo may be helpful as well.

 

[truetricia]

Lympho can worsen quickly and is very contagious, particularly to fish in a weakened immune state (in medications for example). An updated photo may be helpful as well.

So after a few more days, I'm so confused by these fish. There's still Cupramine in the tank at therapeutic doses of 0.5. I've now been feeding @Humblefish medicated slurry of metroplex, kanaplex and focus for five days.

I've seen varying success. The white spots initially got better and I was optimistic. But then another new one appeared on the male, and within 12 hours, looked to be improving. While this could still be in the norm for parasites lifecycle, I'm a little skeptical.

I'm considering buying a Hanna copper checked as well just to make sure I'm not screwing up by misreading a color test.

First photo is the female all cleared up. Male looked the same initially.

And then the smaller male with some resurgence of white spots that got better within 12 hours.