Ich returns after 76 day fallow

[NowGlazeIT]

I never said I could get a PBT through QT while eradicating Ich... which is the whole tenet of my posts. Yall say that you can.

Haha dude your opinions are stepping over scientifically proven facts and humbefish has cured and received many fish with active velvet and it’s why we weigh heavily on his advice. I’ll tell you right now if you fail to remove stress from a healthy fish then your QT setup isn’t accommodating ENOUGH! I have a sand dwelling Wrasse in QT as we speak and he was in my DT for 2 months prior. His behavior was stressed for the first Week but I added some sand got better food and soaked them in selcon and now the proof is in puddin baby. I’m sorry you’ve been unsuccessful but it’s not magic I promise.
And as for the leopard Wrasse.
The Wrasse I’m currently prophylactically treating has the same level of tolerance to chelated copper as the leopard. so I wouldn’t do a TTM full of meds as you’ve described.

 

[Makers Marc]

Haha dude your opinions are stepping over scientifically proven facts and humbefish has cured and received many fish with active velvet and it’s why we weigh heavily on his advice. I’ll tell you right now if you fail to remove stress from a healthy fish then your QT setup isn’t accommodating ENOUGH! I have a sand dwelling Wrasse in QT as we speak and he was in my DT for 2 months prior. His behavior was stressed for the first Week but I added some sand got better food and soaked them in selcon and now the proof is in puddin baby. I’m sorry you’ve been unsuccessful but it’s not magic I promise.
And as for the leopard Wrasse.
The Wrasse I’m currently prophylactically treating has the same level of tolerance to chelated copper as the leopard. so I wouldn’t do a TTM full of meds as you’ve described.

I also have a 3 yr old Bipartitus Female that is thriving never being in a QT. Your point?

My point of bringing up the Leopard Wrasse was simply to show that poster that it is silly if you think stress levels are the same for a 20g QT as a 180g display bc they are both "glass boxes." That nothing is "inherently" stressful about a QT.

I'm sure we all respect humblefish. There are alot of ways to skin a cat. We can agree to disagree. I'm just giving the OP something to consider.

 

[NowGlazeIT]

I also have a 3 yr old Bipartitus Female that is thriving never being in a QT. Your point?

My point of bringing up the Leopard Wrasse was simply to show that poster that it is silly if you think stress levels are the same for a 20g QT as a 180g display bc they are both "glass boxes." That nothing is "inherently" stressful about a QT.

I'm sure we all respect humblefish. There are alot of ways to skin a cat. We can agree to disagree. I'm just giving the OP something to consider.

Hey I want you to know I respect your voice and I am glad your showing the other side of the fence for the OP to consider. Plus I like a good debate these days hah but don’t compare a 20g to a 180 man of course the level of freedom coexist with the level of stress for a newcomer but my point is if you can’t get that fish to relax long enough to QT then the QT isn’t enough wether that be in size or other. Some people need a bigger QT I agree. just goes to show yet again that this hobby isn’t cheap.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

There's no need to use derogatory or inflammatory labels such as "die hard," @Makers Marc. If ich management is the route you prefer to take, that's fine. I don't take issue with reefers preferring a different approach to the hobby. I take issue with your characterization of how much work QT is, as well as how stressful it is on a fish. Ich management is also not as simple as you claim that it is. Also, unless you are in fact a marine fish who has experienced a proper QT setup and felt stressed, you can't truthfully say you know how a fish feels in QT.

I work at the National Aquarium in Baltimore. Every wet animal is quarantined for a very long time and treated with medication if necessary. First, if QT was truly as stressful as you claim, we would have no fish as a majority of them would have died in our QT facility. Second, we necropsy every single animal that dies in our care, from the smallest hermit crab to the largest reptiles in our Australia exhibit. If a fish dies in quarantine, we perform a necropsy to learn why. The cause of death is almost always because of a parasite, bacterial infection, or prior internal injury. There have been very few cases where a fish has died in QT and we can't explain why. If a quarantine tank is killing fish, it's because there's something wrong with the tank setup.

To your point, if a reefer doesn't have the resources (or doesn't want to have the resources) to properly QT a fish, then QT can be dangerous. An improperly setup QT tank can be outright dangerous, as can dosing medications without knowing what you're doing. While a 76 day fallow period and a rigorous QT procedure is not particularly easy, disease management in a reef tank isn't a walk in the park either. I and many other people here are of the opinion that taking care of the ich up front is much easier than managing it long term, despite the additional cost and trouble of a QT setup. But again, these are just opinions. I did not come here to debate which method is better, although I have mentioned which one I prefer. I simply wanted to post that claiming QT is inherently stressful is not true. Nor is it true to claim that medicating a fish properly is especially risky or dangerous.

 

[Humblefish]

I'll weigh in briefly on this debate.....

I spent almost 30 years not quarantining, with varying degrees of success. I had some tanks last 5-10 years without issues, but then I would finally pay the price after a heater failed on me, or I finally gambled on the wrong fish, or a prolonged power loss occurred (generators weren't as affordable back then). Watching a 15+ year old pair of Scribbled Angels, that my father handed down to me, succumb to velvet was enough to make me realize I needed to start doing things differently.

That's what it took for me. I needed to feel the pain of their loss to have the mindset I do today. We only learn by doing and unfortunately making mistakes is part of the process. The important thing is that you learn from those mistakes. Don't listen to me or anyone else but yourself, if that's how you feel. But when that day comes when you can feel it inside that what you are doing is wrong, don't ignore that feeling. Own up to it and make whatever changes are necessary in order to right the ship.

 

[Makers Marc]

There's no need to use derogatory or inflammatory labels such as "die hard," @Makers Marc. If ich management is the route you prefer to take, that's fine. I don't take issue with reefers preferring a different approach to the hobby. I take issue with your characterization of how much work QT is, as well as how stressful it is on a fish. Ich management is also not as simple as you claim that it is. Also, unless you are in fact a marine fish who has experienced a proper QT setup and felt stressed, you can't truthfully say you know how a fish feels in QT.

I work at the National Aquarium in Baltimore. Every wet animal is quarantined for a very long time and treated with medication if necessary. First, if QT was truly as stressful as you claim, we would have no fish as a majority of them would have died in our QT facility. Second, we necropsy every single animal that dies in our care, from the smallest hermit crab to the largest reptiles in our Australia exhibit. If a fish dies in quarantine, we perform a necropsy to learn why. The cause of death is almost always because of a parasite, bacterial infection, or prior internal injury. There have been very few cases where a fish has died in QT and we can't explain why. If a quarantine tank is killing fish, it's because there's something wrong with the tank setup.

To your point, if a reefer doesn't have the resources (or doesn't want to have the resources) to properly QT a fish, then QT can be dangerous. An improperly setup QT tank can be outright dangerous, as can dosing medications without knowing what you're doing. While a 76 day fallow period and a rigorous QT procedure is not particularly easy, disease management in a reef tank isn't a walk in the park either. I and many other people here are of the opinion that taking care of the ich up front is much easier than managing it long term, despite the additional cost and trouble of a QT setup. But again, these are just opinions. I did not come here to debate which method is better, although I have mentioned which one I prefer. I simply wanted to post that claiming QT is inherently stressful is not true. Nor is it true to claim that medicating a fish properly is especially risky or dangerous.

99.99999% of reefers with aquariums do not have a QT facility or necropsy table to relate to your success and failure experiences. If we all could QT fish with 20 foot raceway tanks where scientists work their as their day job, maybe we all wpukd2 experience similar results.

The truth is. The majority of home based reefers have other day jobs, time/space/family constraints that may prevent 100% adherence to humblefishs protocol. OP probably did 97% exactly what they shouldve and it wasnt enough according to yall.

But thats reality for most hobbyists that desire to house larger, tougher livestock. So perhaps there are 1% of yall that are free from the constraints above and can eradicate ich from PBT.

Those who cant. Do you keep re catching your fish? I'd love quant data that shows the amt of deaths caused by this process vs. Not.

 

[PGT253]

Not here to argue to I'd like to say that I've successfully kept ich away from my Powder Brown Tang (ich-prone level should be the same as PBT right?), both when I first introduced it to my DT, and when the DT had an outbreak a couple months later (when I added a leopard wrasse that was not QT'ed). I did all that with 2 10g tanks, TTM was what I used. Was he stressed in that 10g tank? He might be. Was he happy when I helped him get rid off all the white-dots after just 2 transfers? Absolutely! He's now to a good home as I didnt want to keep him in a 10g during my fallow period

 

[Humblefish]

The truth is. The majority of home based reefers have other day jobs, time/space/family constraints that may prevent 100% adherence to humblefishs protocol.

I am starting to realize this, and have a solution coming soon.

 

[NowGlazeIT]

I am starting to realize this, and have a solution coming soon.

First I heard you say your in the process of setting up a bunch of tanks and now this little teaser;Muted;Spiderman

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

99.99999% of reefers with aquariums do not have a QT facility or necropsy table to relate to your success and failure experiences. If we all could QT fish with 20 foot raceway tanks where scientists work their as their day job, maybe we all wpukd2 experience similar results.

The truth is. The majority of home based reefers have other day jobs, time/space/family constraints that may prevent 100% adherence to humblefishs protocol. OP probably did 97% exactly what they shouldve and it wasnt enough according to yall.

But thats reality for most hobbyists that desire to house larger, tougher livestock. So perhaps there are 1% of yall that are free from the constraints above and can eradicate ich from PBT.

Those who cant. Do you keep re catching your fish? I'd love quant data that shows the amt of deaths caused by this process vs. Not.

We don't have 20 foot raceways as QT tanks. That would be a terribly inefficient use of space and would not allow us to tailor treatments to individual animals based on need. We generally use 20g highs and 30g for most of our QTs, depending on the animal and department (obviously larger animals who need more space get it). Each tank has its own heater and HOBs for filtration (some of our longer-term QTs even use RUGFs). The systems are incredibly simple, and some might even call them rudimentary.. but they have the basics covered and provide the fish with a perfectly acceptable environment.

Also, it's rare that anyone with a MS or higher gets involved with the day to day of quarantining animals (unless it's one of our endangered species or a large animal like a shark or ray). An exhibit curator or head aquarist will usually write up QT procedure, but most of the work is done by volunteers or interns. This stuff is not done by scientists because it's not rocket science, it's basic aquarium husbandry with a focus on sterilization. Because people like @Humblefish choose to share their knowledge and expertise with us, we can have a similar relationship in the hobby: people with experience write the posts or articles, people without experience (like you, me, or anyone else reading these forums) can do what they say.

With QT, 97% is not good enough. If you want to keep your tanks 100% disease-free, you have to follow the procedure 100%. And that still may not be enough. Perspective is everything with QT. I've run into many reefers who truly believe that it's impossible to keep some diseases out of a tank. These reefers usually don't QT well, if at all, and unsurprisingly have problems with diseases in their tanks. On the other side of that coin is an institution like the Aquarium. We have some tanks with hundreds of fish. Some fish are old and have been in captivity for 10 or 20 years (or longer). Introducing disease into one of these displays would be catastrophic. In most of our tanks, we would literally need divers to remove all the animals to treat them if our QT procedure was ineffective. As a result, the Aquarium's mindset is "no disease or parasite can ever make it into any tank, ever." And unsurprisingly, with thorough QT and medication when appropriate, no diseases make it into any of our displays.

There's not a correct answer here. Aquarists have and will continue to choose management or eradication based on their circumstances. It is not correct, however, to say that QT and medication is stressful. If you do it right, it's not any more stressful than living with a bacterial or parasitic infection for the rest of their lives. It is also not fair to say that QT is not worth it because you won't eradicate the disease if you don't do it correctly. If you don't drive your car correctly, you'll crash; that's not a good argument to not drive. If you are incredibly busy and cannot afford the space or time for QT, I completely understand and don't hold it against you. This is not proof that only 1% of reefers can eradicate ich from powder blue tangs. Proper QT will eradicate ich from any fish. If you cannot QT properly, again, that's fine, but you won't eradicate the ich. This is not evidence that QT doesn't work or isn't worth it.

 

[Makers Marc]

We don't have 20 foot raceways as QT tanks. That would be a terribly inefficient use of space and would not allow us to tailor treatments to individual animals based on need. We generally use 20g highs and 30g for most of our QTs, depending on the animal and department (obviously larger animals who need more space get it). Each tank has its own heater and HOBs for filtration (some of our longer-term QTs even use RUGFs). The systems are incredibly simple, and some might even call them rudimentary.. but they have the basics covered and provide the fish with a perfectly acceptable environment.

Also, it's rare that anyone with a MS or higher gets involved with the day to day of quarantining animals (unless it's one of our endangered species or a large animal like a shark or ray). An exhibit curator or head aquarist will usually write up QT procedure, but most of the work is done by volunteers or interns. This stuff is not done by scientists because it's not rocket science, it's basic aquarium husbandry with a focus on sterilization. Because people like @Humblefish choose to share their knowledge and expertise with us, we can have a similar relationship in the hobby: people with experience write the posts or articles, people without experience (like you, me, or anyone else reading these forums) can do what they say.

With QT, 97% is not good enough. If you want to keep your tanks 100% disease-free, you have to follow the procedure 100%. And that still may not be enough. Perspective is everything with QT. I've run into many reefers who truly believe that it's impossible to keep some diseases out of a tank. These reefers usually don't QT well, if at all, and unsurprisingly have problems with diseases in their tanks. On the other side of that coin is an institution like the Aquarium. We have some tanks with hundreds of fish. Some fish are old and have been in captivity for 10 or 20 years (or longer). Introducing disease into one of these displays would be catastrophic. In most of our tanks, we would literally need divers to remove all the animals to treat them if our QT procedure was ineffective. As a result, the Aquarium's mindset is "no disease or parasite can ever make it into any tank, ever." And unsurprisingly, with thorough QT and medication when appropriate, no diseases make it into any of our displays.

There's not a correct answer here. Aquarists have and will continue to choose management or eradication based on their circumstances. It is not correct, however, to say that QT and medication is stressful. If you do it right, it's not any more stressful than living with a bacterial or parasitic infection for the rest of their lives. It is also not fair to say that QT is not worth it because you won't eradicate the disease if you don't do it correctly. If you don't drive your car correctly, you'll crash; that's not a good argument to not drive. If you are incredibly busy and cannot afford the space or time for QT, I completely understand and don't hold it against you. This is not proof that only 1% of reefers can eradicate ich from powder blue tangs. Proper QT will eradicate ich from any fish. If you cannot QT properly, again, that's fine, but you won't eradicate the ich. This is not evidence that QT doesn't work or isn't worth it.

Always glad to listen to workers' 1st hand experience at large aquariums.

While you may use a 20g tall QT tank, you release them into this voluminous tank which no residential aquarist can relate to. Id be willing to bet theres many fish amongst the thousands, that have ich but can overcome it due to the luxurious space it has to live whicb reduces mant stressors.

 

[4FordFamily]

99.99999% of reefers with aquariums do not have a QT facility or necropsy table to relate to your success and failure experiences. If we all could QT fish with 20 foot raceway tanks where scientists work their as their day job, maybe we all wpukd2 experience similar results.

The truth is. The majority of home based reefers have other day jobs, time/space/family constraints that may prevent 100% adherence to humblefishs protocol. OP probably did 97% exactly what they shouldve and it wasnt enough according to yall.

But thats reality for most hobbyists that desire to house larger, tougher livestock. So perhaps there are 1% of yall that are free from the constraints above and can eradicate ich from PBT.

Those who cant. Do you keep re catching your fish? I'd love quant data that shows the amt of deaths caused by this process vs. Not.

My wife works til 10:00 and I have a 20 month old and 3.5 year old I wake up, take to daycare, feed, bathe, put to bed, 5/7 days of most weeks, I work full time a 9-5 and then some extra hours, among many other constraints— I find time for proper care for my fish and tanks. It’s less work in the long-run and is SO much more rewarding.

I also did this while working part time (20 hours), stay at home ”dadding” (almost all day) to a special needs daughter (she’s fine now, thank God), AND going to full time grad school by night and exercising an hour every day. I don’t want a pat on the back, but I do want to point out that anything that is a priority can be done.

On to the op’s post—- I’ve cross contaminated several times. Washing my arm from tank to tank? Didn’t work. Another time I shared a net like a dope. Bailed water out with a bucket I used to acclimate new fish that had not 100% dried, and the WORST took me two full 76 day trials to discover that a small goby I thought had died, was in my sump for the entire duration of my fallow period, nullifying it altogether. I discovered this when I moved, now I know why when I treated the DT it worked fine. What a pain though —removing copper and turning it back in to a vibrant reef. I no longer buy small fish that can hide in my sump!

I’m sorry for your frustration, believe me I understand! I learned almost everything the hard way!

 

[Makers Marc]

My wife works til 10:00 and I have a 20 month old and 3.5 year old I wake up, take to daycare, feed, bathe, put to bed, 5/7 days of most weeks, I work full time a 9-5 and then some extra hours, among many other constraints— I find time for proper care for my fish and tanks. It’s less work in the long-run and is SO much more rewarding.

I also did this while working part time (20 hours), stay at home ”dadding” (almost all day) to a special needs daughter (she’s fine now, thank God), AND going to full time grad school by night and exercising an hour every day. I don’t want a pat on the back, but I do want to point out that anything that is a priority can be done.

On to the op’s post—- I’ve cross contaminated several times. Washing my arm from tank to tank? Didn’t work. Another time I shared a net like a dope. Bailed water out with a bucket I used to acclimate new fish that had not 100% dried, and the WORST took me two full 76 day trials to discover that a small goby I thought had died, was in my sump for the entire duration of my fallow period, nullifying it altogether. I discovered this when I moved, now I know why when I treated the DT it worked fine. What a pain though —removing copper and turning it back in to a vibrant reef. I no longer buy small fish that can hide in my sump!

I’m sorry for your frustration, believe me I understand! I learned almost everything the hard way!

Im not frustrated at all. Actually, far from it. And far less frustrated than OP.

I'm fine running a 2-3 wk observstion period in my 20g with no other prophylactic treatment except Prazi. Lots of feeding to ensure all parties are comfortable eating before adding to DT and good water changes. Right now I have a larger sunburst anthias that is in wk 2 and finally eating more aggressively. If it continues it goes in my DT sometime soon.

 

[NowGlazeIT]

Im not frustrated at all. Actually, far from it. And far less frustrated than OP.

I'm fine running a 2-3 wk observstion period in my 20g with no other prophylactic treatment except Prazi. Lots of feeding to ensure all parties are comfortable eating before adding to DT and good water changes. Right now I have a larger sunburst anthias that is in wk 2 and finally eating more aggressively. If it continues it goes in my DT sometime soon.

So...you do QT ;Hilarious just not from the start and not for everything

 

[NowGlazeIT]

See so we’re all on the same page. some just like to roll the dice more then others and some truly believe you can’t have an ich free tank. But the majority of us know better
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/poll-opinion-is-a-tank-ever-considered-ich-free.343694/page-2

 

[Makers Marc]

So...you do QT ;Hilarious just not from the start and not for everything

Whats hilarious about it? That I dont blindly chase your "rigorous, scientific process" to the "T?" That other hobbyist can have success without being anal?

You do realize that what was "scientific proof " 10 yrs ago, has changed today? In 2 yrs hobbyists will claim we must now QT for 112 days due to "new strains " of ich and blah blah...

Evidently you're only focusing on what you want to focus on haha.

Go ahead. Tell OP to yank all his fish out again and lets ask him how many end up dying in 76 days.... bc any other way us immoral and impossible right?

 

[Makers Marc]

See so we’re all on the same page. some just like to roll the dice more then others and some truly believe you can’t have an ich free tank. But the majority of us know better
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/poll-opinion-is-a-tank-ever-considered-ich-free.343694/page-2

"Majority" = Inaccurate. Waaaayyy too small a sample size. But whatever builds your case to convince OP

"Know better " = exactly why I enjoy going at it with you ppl.

 

[Makers Marc]

Whats hilarious about it? That I dont blindly chase your "rigorous, scientific process" to the "T?" That other hobbyist can have success without being anal?

You do realize that what was "scientific proof " 10 yrs ago, has changed today? In 2 yrs hobbyists will claim we must now QT for 112 days due to "new strains " of ich and blah blah...

Evidently you're only focusing on what you want to focus on haha.

Go ahead. Tell OP to yank all his fish out again and lets ask him how many end up dying in 76 days.... bc any other way us immoral and impossible right?

So you have a 60 gallon cube with a single piece of rock and a clownfish?


Ahhhh... it all makes sense now.

 

[NowGlazeIT]

So you have a 60 gallon cube with a single piece of rock and a clownfish?


Ahhhh... it all makes sense now.

Ummm no sir

 

[NowGlazeIT]

You want to talk about QT and stress I received this baby mandarin 2 weeks ago with a missing fin and this was his first ever introduction to a glass box