Ich still present after 80 days fallow...

[Medmondsii]

Sorry! I thought I read you had your UV set at 1380 gph. Yeah, 180 is slow, ich larva will have plenty of time to find new hosts before getting pushed through the UV. Running a UV at slower flow rates increases the exposure rate insuring better kill rates. But slower flow rates will give ich larva more time to find hosts. This is one reason it can be confusing and explains why many aquarists have had poor success using UVs for ich. Another variable is where the intake and return are located at. A UV installed in the sump doesn't do a good job of killing larva that are hatching out in the display tank. The setup I've found that gives the best results for dealing with ich in a display tank is to have at least 1 watt of UV for 10 gallons of water, 2-3 turnovers per hour and have a seperate pump lower down behind the aquascaping feeding the UV and have the return at the surface.

The my sump is located in the basement and the DT is located upstairs. The UV is plumb in a manifold off the output of the return pump. The manifold also has a protein skimmer and a gfo/carbon reactor (not running currently) and then the UV.

here is a quick video (below) of return line (output of the manifold) filling a 1 gallon milk jug. I believe to get gph is 60(sec) X 60(min) / (how many seconds to fill jug). With protein skimmer running i got about 15 seconds. Since im doing only 1 side. To account for the other side i divide 15 seconds in half. which is 7.5 seconds. which give about 480gph going through the UV. correct me if im wrong...

PXL 20220802 220339109

uv flow check 1 gallon fill test

www.youtube.com

 

[Timfish]

The my sump is located in the basement and the DT is located upstairs. The UV is plumb in a manifold off the output of the return pump. The manifold also has a protein skimmer and a gfo/carbon reactor (not running currently) and then the UV.

here is a quick video (below) of return line (output of the manifold) filling a 1 gallon milk jug. I believe to get gph is 60(sec) X 60(min) / (how many seconds to fill jug). With protein skimmer running i got about 15 seconds. Since im doing only 1 side. To account for the other side i divide 15 seconds in half. which is 7.5 seconds. which give about 480gph going through the UV. correct me if im wrong...

PXL 20220802 220339109

uv flow check 1 gallon fill test

www.youtube.com

From my experience this is not a very effective way to kill the ich that are hatching out in your display tank. Not only does the ich have plenty of time to find fish before they go into the overflow but once they go through the manifold only a fraction of the larva will go through the UV while the rest don't and a fraction will be sent back to the tank. Trying to figure out your actual kill rate for the plumbing design you have requires not only the flow rate of everything else on the manifold but also the flow rate of the water going back to the aquarium. If it isn't practical to move the UV to the display tank with it's own pump I would put ti inline on the return line so all the water going to the display is going through the UV and reduce the flow to 2-3 turnovers per hour. If additional flow is needed in the display I'd use power heads or wave makers.

 

[Medmondsii]

From my experience this is not a very effective way to kill the ich that are hatching out in your display tank. Not only does the ich have plenty of time to find fish before they go into the overflow but once they go through the manifold only a fraction of the larva will go through the UV while the rest don't and a fraction will be sent back to the tank. Trying to figure out your actual kill rate for the plumbing design you have requires not only the flow rate of everything else on the manifold but also the flow rate of the water going back to the aquarium. If it isn't practical to move the UV to the display tank with it's own pump I would put ti inline on the return line so all the water going to the display is going through the UV and reduce the flow to 2-3 turnovers per hour. If additional flow is needed in the display I'd use power heads or wave makers.

Hmm. this is interesting... I can move the uv upstairs. But i was gonn get a high flow pump. A reeflo manta ray and crank up the flow to the UV.

So what you are saying is move the uv upstair next to the overflow, route all over flow lines (3 lines total 1" pvc) all flow coming out of overflow will be going through the UV. and then down to the sump.

Since the UV lamp is design for 1360 gph 90k microwatt/cm (aquauv 120 chart below). Would getting a bigger pump give me the same results? Right now the flow is very slow and the uv is not able to get ahead of the virus.


Also.. What about dosing H202 dosing?
Have read the is thread from humblefish?https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/peroxide-h2o2-dosing-for-parasites-in-reef-tank.725/

 

[Timfish]

Putting the UV where all the water is pushed through it instead of just a fraction is an improvement over where it is now. But I worry about putting it inline from the overflow to the sump as it is going to restrict water flow and that is never a good think on a drain line as it has the potential to cause flooding. It sounds like there is room for the UV around or above the display tank so I would put it on it's own pump separate from the rest of the plumping. I would use flexable vinyl tubing so it's easier to install than rigid PVC and have a pump that would push 2-3 turnovers an hour through it set behind the rockwork at the bottom on one end and the output from the UV close to the surface at the other end.

I've never messed with H2O2 for controlling parasites but would advise being careful as it can cause serious problems with corals. But this brings up another point that applies to UVs also. We're learning more and more about the microbiomes in our systems. H2O2 will certainly kill off subsets and Aquabiomic's work has shown UV's also kill off subsets of the microbiomes. Until we can better identify what's beneficial and what's as well as what H2O2 and UVs are killing off and what they're not I would not use either method long term. From my experince at most I would not run a UV for more than 6 months to control ich and wouldn't use it for dealing with algae.

 

[nereefpat]

I know it's pretty standard practice to do 30 days of copper in QT and then drop the copper until the display fallow period is over. I don't like it. Personally, I would keep the copper until you transfer the fish or move fish to a different sterile QT.

I'm positive that ich can't survive 80 days fallow

 

[Dom]

@Jay Hemdal - "Biosecurity"?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal - "Biosecurity"?

Here is an article that describes this concept:

Biosecurity

A short introduction to aquarium biosecurity

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[Dom]

Here is an article that describes this concept:

Biosecurity

A short introduction to aquarium biosecurity

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

"Biosecurity is a general term that identifies steps to be taken in order to limit the entry of unwanted disease organisms into aquarium systems."

Answers my question. Thank you!

 

[Medmondsii]

I finally got video of my fish with spots on him


Check it out

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I finally got video of my fish with spots on him


Check it out

Only one Achilles has spots? That’s odd. Often only Achilles will show ich first, but I wouldn’t expect one to have spots and the other not.
Jay

 

[piranhaman00]

The hippo also flashes at 26s

 

[Medmondsii]

Only one Achilles has spots? That’s odd. Often only Achilles will show ich first, but I wouldn’t expect one to have spots and the other not.
Jay

its tough to see. but the other achillies dose have spots

 

[homegrowncichlid]

Since you've got ich in the system now, I prefer the herd immunity plan, personally, which has worked for me.
As you know there are fish species that are resistant and those that are not. Damsels, chromis, zebrasomas are some schooling fish that I find are resistant to ich and can develop immunity within 2 exposures to that one ich strain. Acanthurus or hippos have no resistance to ich and will constantly rehatch ich over and over till ich dies out in your system. The only problem is that the fish needs to survive the 2 exposures to develop immunity, which it can if the ich load was low, but if there's a bloom, no fish can survive a coating of ich on the skin or gills. Luckily for you, with your UV set up, it's not possible to get a bloom.
What I did was introduced a school of common blue green chromis, so that it provided more skin surface area than then vulnerable species. (may be tough for you since you have such a large system). ich will infect the chromis and the acanthurus equally. After the chromis develop immunity, any new ich that lands on it will be cleared from it's skin, breaking the ich lifecycle. The acanthurus will continue the ich cycle.

So if you get my drift..., if there was 10 ich in cycle one, then 100 in cycle 2, and 1000 in cycle 3, all your non immune fish will succumb to the bloom. (assume the simply math that 1 ich produces 10 offspring)

If there was 2 equal sized fish, one chromis and one acanthurus, and the chromis was immune,
10 in cycle one, of which 5 will hit the chromis and not mature. 5 on the tang and mature.
50 in cycle 2, 25 on the chromis and not mature and 25 on the tang, and so forth.

Now if there were 5 equal sized fish, 4 chromis and 1 tang
10 in cycle 1, 8 on the chromis and 2 on the tang
20 in cycle 2, 16 on the chromis and 4 on the tang,

at this point, herd immunity is in effect and an ich bloom is not possible. all the fish will survive the ich, till the population dies out in 7 or so months. Newly added resistant fish will also survive easily and add to the ration of total herd immunity.

If you add up your fish, figure out which are resistant and which are not, then figure out the ratio and be sure to have limit the non resistant species or increase the resistant species for the 7 month duration.

There are publications (clownfish and brooklynella) describing the fish immunity against parasites and how many exposures it takes for acquired immunity. I linked one below, and seemed to have lost the original journal publication.
NOTE, immunity is temporary, and lost a few months after the parasite is removed from the system. Immunity only applies to the specific ich strain you have, and introducing a new strain will cause a new bloom.

I maintain a favorable ratio of immune fish in my system, to provide holistic resistance to ich, on the off chance it gets past my "bio security".

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/

 

[Medmondsii]

here vid number 2

 

[Chrisv.]

So I guess this is a bit of an academic question, but do we think the parasites made it through fallow, or made it through copper?

 

[748S911]

I experienced the same issues, I kept my tank fallow for over 3-4 months, treated fish. Threw them back in…boom ich again and it came back with a vengeance.

So I pulled all fish out again, treated them in separate tank.

removed all sand in display and ran it for 3 months with UV in (sump) and it worked. No more ich.

Not saying that you should fallow this, but the 75 days has never worked for me and removing sand did and solved all my ich issues.

I love sand, so for my next build I will quarantine all my fish for at least six months and quarantine corals too. Before I add anything to my display. Not taking any chances this time around.

 

[Medmondsii]

Since you've got ich in the system now, I prefer the herd immunity plan, personally, which has worked for me.
As you know there are fish species that are resistant and those that are not. Damsels, chromis, zebrasomas are some schooling fish that I find are resistant to ich and can develop immunity within 2 exposures to that one ich strain. Acanthurus or hippos have no resistance to ich and will constantly rehatch ich over and over till ich dies out in your system. The only problem is that the fish needs to survive the 2 exposures to develop immunity, which it can if the ich load was low, but if there's a bloom, no fish can survive a coating of ich on the skin or gills. Luckily for you, with your UV set up, it's not possible to get a bloom.
What I did was introduced a school of common blue green chromis, so that it provided more skin surface area than then vulnerable species. (may be tough for you since you have such a large system). ich will infect the chromis and the acanthurus equally. After the chromis develop immunity, any new ich that lands on it will be cleared from it's skin, breaking the ich lifecycle. The acanthurus will continue the ich cycle.

So if you get my drift..., if there was 10 ich in cycle one, then 100 in cycle 2, and 1000 in cycle 3, all your non immune fish will succumb to the bloom. (assume the simply math that 1 ich produces 10 offspring)

If there was 2 equal sized fish, one chromis and one acanthurus, and the chromis was immune,
10 in cycle one, of which 5 will hit the chromis and not mature. 5 on the tang and mature.
50 in cycle 2, 25 on the chromis and not mature and 25 on the tang, and so forth.

Now if there were 5 equal sized fish, 4 chromis and 1 tang
10 in cycle 1, 8 on the chromis and 2 on the tang
20 in cycle 2, 16 on the chromis and 4 on the tang,

at this point, herd immunity is in effect and an ich bloom is not possible. all the fish will survive the ich, till the population dies out in 7 or so months. Newly added resistant fish will also survive easily and add to the ration of total herd immunity.

If you add up your fish, figure out which are resistant and which are not, then figure out the ratio and be sure to have limit the non resistant species or increase the resistant species for the 7 month duration.

There are publications (clownfish and brooklynella) describing the fish immunity against parasites and how many exposures it takes for acquired immunity. I linked one below, and seemed to have lost the original journal publication.
NOTE, immunity is temporary, and lost a few months after the parasite is removed from the system. Immunity only applies to the specific ich strain you have, and introducing a new strain will cause a new bloom.

I maintain a favorable ratio of immune fish in my system, to provide holistic resistance to ich, on the off chance it gets past my "bio security".

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/

this is an interesting post.

So are anthias lyretail have resistance to ich bloom? Cause i do have 3 females in QT now.

Right now.. Im dosing 3% h2o2 im on the first week now.

Its seem the smaller achillies always has it the worst. but i do understand your here. Put more ich resistance fish in front of the more vulnerable fish (tangs).

And this will help

So I guess this is a bit of an academic question, but do we think the parasites made it through fallow, or made it through copper?

i believe so. every fish that is in the tank now have been qt. With copper 30 days and 2 rounds of prazi. Tank was fallow for 80 days. put the fish in the dt and now. ICH!!!

I got a uv sterilizer a aqua uv 120 watt kills ich at 1360 gph. But currently my flow is too slow. Maybe why is hasnt completely taken over my tank.

So currently im doing h2o2 dosing with UV and see if i can get it gone.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

here vid number 2

So - in watching this clearer video, I started to get a different impression. These spots are large and protrude pretty far from the fish's body. I did not see any spots on the soft parts of the fins, just the body. While it is probably ich, it borders on possibly being another issue - mucus plugs, tangs develop these as a response to skin irritation (sometimes copper treatments, other times it is unknown).

As you put together a plan to deal with it if it is ich, what you should do is take a clear picture of one side of the worst Achilles. Each day, take another picture of the same side of the same fish. Compare the pictures. If the spots are in the same location, in the same numbers each day for 3 days, then this isn't ich. If the spots change numbers (increase or decrease) and change locations, then it is more likely ich. Basically these mucus plugs just grow on the fish's skin, and while some get knocked off, and a few new ones may develop, they mostly stay put. Ich trophonts on the other hand tend to start small, grow larger, then drop off the fish and multiply. This creates ever changing spot patterns (with a gneral increase in numbers).

Jay

 

[homegrowncichlid]

this is an interesting post.

So are anthias lyretail have resistance to ich bloom? Cause i do have 3 females in QT now.

Right now.. Im dosing 3% h2o2 im on the first week now.

Its seem the smaller achillies always has it the worst. but i do understand your here. Put more ich resistance fish in front of the more vulnerable fish (tangs).

And this will help

i believe so. every fish that is in the tank now have been qt. With copper 30 days and 2 rounds of prazi. Tank was fallow for 80 days. put the fish in the dt and now. ICH!!!

I got a uv sterilizer a aqua uv 120 watt kills ich at 1360 gph. But currently my flow is too slow. Maybe why is hasnt completely taken over my tank.

So currently im doing h2o2 dosing with UV and see if i can get it gone.

I have no experience with anthias, sorry, I assume they would be very similar to chromis in resistance and lifestyle, as they do occupy the same niche. That's just a guess on my part.
The UV does the same function as immune fish, in that they both reduces the parasite load in the water column. Regardless of which method you use, if you can control the bloom, your fish will survive ich till the ich dies out in about 7 months. GL

 

[Medmondsii]

Since you've got ich in the system now, I prefer the herd immunity plan, personally, which has worked for me.
As you know there are fish species that are resistant and those that are not. Damsels, chromis, zebrasomas are some schooling fish that I find are resistant to ich and can develop immunity within 2 exposures to that one ich strain. Acanthurus or hippos have no resistance to ich and will constantly rehatch ich over and over till ich dies out in your system. The only problem is that the fish needs to survive the 2 exposures to develop immunity, which it can if the ich load was low, but if there's a bloom, no fish can survive a coating of ich on the skin or gills. Luckily for you, with your UV set up, it's not possible to get a bloom.
What I did was introduced a school of common blue green chromis, so that it provided more skin surface area than then vulnerable species. (may be tough for you since you have such a large system). ich will infect the chromis and the acanthurus equally. After the chromis develop immunity, any new ich that lands on it will be cleared from it's skin, breaking the ich lifecycle. The acanthurus will continue the ich cycle.

So if you get my drift..., if there was 10 ich in cycle one, then 100 in cycle 2, and 1000 in cycle 3, all your non immune fish will succumb to the bloom. (assume the simply math that 1 ich produces 10 offspring)

If there was 2 equal sized fish, one chromis and one acanthurus, and the chromis was immune,
10 in cycle one, of which 5 will hit the chromis and not mature. 5 on the tang and mature.
50 in cycle 2, 25 on the chromis and not mature and 25 on the tang, and so forth.

Now if there were 5 equal sized fish, 4 chromis and 1 tang
10 in cycle 1, 8 on the chromis and 2 on the tang
20 in cycle 2, 16 on the chromis and 4 on the tang,

at this point, herd immunity is in effect and an ich bloom is not possible. all the fish will survive the ich, till the population dies out in 7 or so months. Newly added resistant fish will also survive easily and add to the ration of total herd immunity.

If you add up your fish, figure out which are resistant and which are not, then figure out the ratio and be sure to have limit the non resistant species or increase the resistant species for the 7 month duration.

There are publications (clownfish and brooklynella) describing the fish immunity against parasites and how many exposures it takes for acquired immunity. I linked one below, and seemed to have lost the original journal publication.
NOTE, immunity is temporary, and lost a few months after the parasite is removed from the system. Immunity only applies to the specific ich strain you have, and introducing a new strain will cause a new bloom.

I maintain a favorable ratio of immune fish in my system, to provide holistic resistance to ich, on the off chance it gets past my "bio security".

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/

this is an interesting post.

So are anthias lyretail have resistance to ich bloom? Cause i do have 3 females in QT now.

Right now.. Im dosing 3% h2o2 im on the first week now.

Its seem the smaller achillies always has it the worst. but i do understand your here. Put more ich resistance fish in front of the more vulnerable fish (tangs).

And this will help b

So - in watching this clearer video, I started to get a different impression. These spots are large and protrude pretty far from the fish's body. I did not see any spots on the soft parts of the fins, just the body. While it is probably ich, it borders on possibly being another issue - mucus plugs, tangs develop these as a response to skin irritation (sometimes copper treatments, other times it is unknown).

As you put together a plan to deal with it if it is ich, what you should do is take a clear picture of one side of the worst Achilles. Each day, take another picture of the same side of the same fish. Compare the pictures. If the spots are in the same location, in the same numbers each day for 3 days, then this isn't ich. If the spots change numbers (increase or decrease) and change locations, then it is more likely ich. Basically these mucus plugs just grow on the fish's skin, and while some get knocked off, and a few new ones may develop, they mostly stay put. Ich trophonts on the other hand tend to start small, grow larger, then drop off the fish and multiply. This creates ever changing spot patterns (with a gneral increase in numbers).

Jay

i dont know what the difference between mucus plugs and ich. but i will do some investigation into this.